Since I am in ADMU, I'm going with ADMU!

:snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo:

Semper Fidelis et Paratus

Ever heard of the Rainbow Rangers and Sunday Soldiers?

BTW, try reading past post, all post, and learn from those that are more knowledgeable in all the subjects you're raising.

Sorry, Capitan. I'm just learning how to play the game. Cut me some slack.

:snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo:

Semper Fidelis et Paratus

This reminds me of how some alumni in my beloved, defunct, Ateneo de Davao ROTCU used to talk. One in particular used to say "I can't help but brag about my batch, but we really were the best". I actually started the predecessor of the ADROTH Project 14 years ago partly because of that kind of bravado -- to figure out the parameters for being "the best".

The fact of the matter is, that there is no common, absolute, standard for determining what it means to be "the best".

What is the timeframe? Unless a unit enjoys the continued presence of an effective commandant like BGEN Vallejo of UP in the 80's, you'd have to be more granular and ask "best for what school year?".

Which of the following metrics suit you:

Tactical Inspection performance? We all know how those things go. (Note: I'm not griping, the AdDU's has much to be proud off in this department).

Officer production? Probably, but are there really schools that can boast of being able to produce a steady stream of graduates that actually joined the service, or at least sought commissions?

If this were a measure, the following schools that managed to product Generals should be considered for this title. The number of generals is based on the figures available on the ADROTH - Project Star Tracker to-date.

Ateneo de Manila University (1)
Central Philippine University (1)
Far Eastern University (3; 2 of which are doctors)
Iloilo Maritime Academy (1; I still don't have independent verification of this)
Philippine Merchant Marine Academy (2)
Silliman University (1)
University of the Philippines (6; includes 3 AFP chiefs of staff)
University of Santo Tomas (2)

This would leave De La salle University out of the "race", which -- from what I've observed from a distance -- would be an injustice given the effectiveness of their program. Regardless of whether or not you believe in the value of awards, you have to give them credit for producing two AFP Cadets of the Year in a space of four years.

IMHO, the best unit is one that is best able to perform its mission, which is to produce qualified reservists -- across the board, both cadet officers and regular cadets -- who will answer the call to serve when it comes. How do you measure that?

UP, they not only produced officers for the AFP, but also officers for the NPA :demon:

Even though some ROTC graduates join the service and become generals, it's very sad that many officers in the AFP who got commissioned through ROTC are under discrimination from the PMA elite.

:snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo:

Semper Fidelis et Paratus

That's actually one of the assumptions I hope to clarify in the StarTracker study.

Elite or otherwise, discrimination is not the main problem. I am convinced that the ROTC system, past and current, does not attract high calibre candidates for service in the regular force or active duty components, thus the imbalance.

Quoting mi amigo Adroth:

"The National ROTC Alumni Association (NRAA) estimates that ROTC graduates comprise approximately 70% of the AFP officer corps. However, only roughly 5% of generals/admirals come from this block. Both casual observers understandably ask: Why?

Speculation about the cause of the imbalance can be grouped into two common assumptions:

* Graduates of the Philippine Military Academy are unduly favored over non-PMA graduates
* Non-PMA graduates are inherently inferior to their Baguio-forged counterparts

Needless to say, non-PMA alumni espouse the first assumption, while PMA supporters champion the latter. The ADROTH Project believes that the truth lies somewhere in between."

http://www.adroth.ph/sites/star/y_bother.htm

Read related threads:

http://s3.invisionfree.com/Defense_Philipp...topic=611&st=30

Oops typo :armyredface: Fixing in progress. :crawling:

----- ~~~ -------

Part of the reason I'm not willing to swallow the "discrimination" business, hook line and sinker, is that its so easy to cover up failure with allegations of unfair treatment. I've seen that a lot of times in the civilian world. I don't see why that can't happen in the military.

And if your wondering, yes, I have experienced discrimination myself. Once as a "Promdi" in Manila, another as a Pinoy in Taiwan. In both situations I had the last laugh when I outworked and outflanked my detractors.

I believe my fellow ROTC graduates should get the recognition they deserve -- but only up to the point that they deserve. Meritocracy is the key gentlemen.

I once read an article where a self-declared ROTC graduate complained that he, and officers like him, couldn't compete with PMA graduates because they had all the schooling and experience. Was this guy in favor of lowering standards just to accomodate him? I'm hoping that this quote was taken out of context, because it really puts us in a bad light.

We can't work to improve the lot of ROTC graduates if we do not fully understand the problem. We have to determine if they really are getting a fair shake. Sometimes it takes a third-party to really figure things out.

This is still unfair. :snipemo:

For purposes of discussion, can you cite examples of unfairness?

Like why wasn't Lt.Gen. Alberto Braganza considered to be the next AFP Chief-of-Staff? They picked Lt.Gen. Efren Abu instead because he was from PMA. :crawling:

How do you know he wasn't considered?

Have you performed a line-by-line comparison of their qualifications?

What makes you say the GEN Abu is inferior to LGEN Braganza?

As much as I'd like to see another from-ROTC Chief of Staff, I think your grasping as straws on this one.

^^look what they're going to get for having Abu as CS: nice and elegant sidewalks...now whos complaining? :bow:

Doro,

Lets keep this discussion on track. The sidewalks issue is being discussed on this thread: http://s3.invisionfree.com/Defense_Philipp...?showtopic=1267

This discussion is about how much truth is there is in the allegations of unfair promotion practices in the AFP. Are ROTC graduates actually frowned upon, or are some of my fellow ROTC graduates merely using it as an excuse for poor performance -- or failure to play the game.

I'm sure there will be specific instances, as there will be in any organization, but the question is: Is it really as prevalent as people alledge? Or are poor performers simply using this as a scapegoat for failure to advance?

Commando,

As it is with any organization, military or civilian, upper management positions (be it the postion of VP, or in the case of the military BGEN and up) are all about trust. Its as much about how well a particular person will be able to work with his fellow VP / BGENs as it is about personal ability. The CEO / President has to have a working team, and chemistry between his management team is important.

The question of whether or not skills / achievements are duly recognized is more relevant at the lower levels. If there is, in fact, any discrimination it will manifest itself in the availability of training opportunities, e.g., foreign / civilian schooling, etc.

Unless you can come up with specific examples at that level, then this discussion is mute, and simply boils down to "your word against mine".

Mr. P and CDF,

What is the lowest rank at which an officer can apply for additional combat, and non-combat schooling? How many years of service are required for Command Staff College and NDCP?

How competitive are the slots for this schooling, and how are officers chosen?

thanks for the detour :drunk:

:armycheers: Peace.

Sadly i don't know anyone who Graduated from the DLSU ROTC and went on to become a genral but I am acquanted with alot of Lasallians ROTC officers who graduated from PMA and went on to become generals. i.e. Admiral Mayuga.

Currently we are still hoping of two Lasallian of ROTC graduates who got commisioned but served as active reservist to be promoted to star rank. Though they have been on the promotion board for quite some time already (about 20 years).

The question of Commisonship and Regular service is a hot topic in DLSU specially during the Annual tactical inspections.

Main reasons for non participation of DLSU gradutaes are as follows

1.) The differences in its academic schedule (POTC start on april 01 and ends on may 31 while our academics ends on april 15TH and classes starts on may 20th)

2.) Lack of support from the administration to facilitate admitance into the POTC.

3.) we ussually have an average of 1 participant during POTC. 1 for SST 2004 and another 1 during the SST1998(not sure of this year, i will have to verify)

I suspect Rafael Alunan is one of these. Who is the other one?

However, given the cap on the number of general / admirals in the AFP, I doubt if they'd spare a star-slot to a reservist. As it is, there are several O-7 positions currently being occupied by Colonels.

I heard that the AFP is short of commissioned officers (the Army needs more than 700 lieutenants). Should they activate some ROTC graduates? :aberet:

Are you joining?

I want to, but my parents keep telling me that if I want to be a successful military officer in our country, I should study and graduate from PMA. And they won't let me join the military or enter PMA unless I have a college degree! :sad2:

I thought you're an advance graduate that's why you hate the PMA?

I'm still in college and I respect the PMA. That's all I have to say about that.

Good to hear it Man! Try to finish your studies and by that time you feel like joining the service you could go to OCS or the PMA if you like.

On the meantime since you're quite interested in this field try to learn more from this forum especially from those that is in the service.

Me, I'm also learning a lot and is admiring these fellow posters.! :bow:

to be a good officer, you need to be a good leader... but the foundation of a good leader is character and integrity... you can be a good leader by making right decision.. you'll learn right decision from experience.. and experience was derive from making wrong decision... tthe point is learn from the wisdom of other people's experience... and anyone with proper attitude towards learning can learn that... the school is just a seasoning in the viand... it's not the main ingredient :specool:

Are you saying you are bashing the PMA and the nebulous "PMA first policy" based on what your parents told you? :wow:

Are your parents in the military by any chance?

That's a smart piece of advice. There are a number of Advance ROTC graduates who proceed to the PMA after graduation, so they have the benefit of a degree (which makes a good fall back plan), as well as martial education.

One of our Corps Commanders did that, and he is currently a Major in the PA.

"One of our Corps Commanders did that, and he is currently a Major in the PA."

So he was already a reservist then when he joined the PMA? How was he treated when taking up advance rotc?

"Panakip butas ka lamang," as the song goes.

If you are assuming that there are 800 qualified ROTC graduates who want a career as army officers then you may be correct but where are they?

They'd have to qualify first. Then they have to be trained again. But first, they have to be recruited. How many ROTC graduates with marketable skills, college degrees, and brains to go with it would like to go to the army if they have more lucrative, peaceful and broader options as civilians here and abroad?

I have worked with filler officers who do not know troop leading procedure. PMA yearlings could even lead better than these guys.

If a stop-gap measure is based on a trade off between quality and quantity then in the interim, I'd rather have career NCOs leading platoons in combat than marginal, shake and bake, ill-motivated, segundo camotes hired as a filler officers. If the AFP gets its act together by overhauling the ROTC program to produce elite regular and active reserve officers then we can talk about closing the gap.

No, they're not, adroth. My dad's a manager in San Miguel Corporation and my mom's a real estate developer.

Thanks for the advice, shadowsniper. :specool:

:agree:

NCOs are the backbone of any professional army.

Does the AFP have an equivalent to the US Army ROTC "Green to Gold" program?

http://www.rotc.monroe.army.mil/scholarships/green/

Here's a brief description of the program:

The presence of real soldiers in an ROTC unit could be a real boon to the program.

I'm familiar with the US Army's Green to Gold but I am not aware of an equivalent program within our armed forces. I seem to remember something like an Outstanding Airman program in the air force. Airmen with outstanding performance based on certain criteria were eligible for commissioning as reserve officers provided they obtain their college degrees. I am almost certain it is still in place.

When ROTC was compulsary, students with military service under their belts were exempted from ROTC.

Come to think of it, a Philippine version of the Green to Gold program would be a great way to kick start the ROTC re-vitalization program that you came up with Mr. P.

Once you have these student-soldiers in place, you'd already have a pretty solid foundation for the PMA-led, but civilian university-based, officer training program.

Now if we can only get the frigg'n J-7 (formerly J-10) to listen.

Get the PMA-led, but civilian university-based, officer training program in place first. Then you can have a better Green to Gold and Blue to Silver.

Don't we have Officer Candidate School? :aberet:

Commando,

This is part of a very looong discussion already. No offense, but you'd really be doing everyone a favor if you read more and post less.

Lets all get on the same page first . . . then lets talk :thumb: BTW, check your inbox.

In Pendejo's words, this not a shake n bake OCS program. To understand the NCO program that we advocate, check the link to the Green to Gold program.

For details about the revitalized ROTC program, check this out.

http://s3.invisionfree.com/Defense_Philipp...topic=611&st=30

Here's the intriguing part of Pendejo's post:

Are you afraid that I might outrank you soon? :sniper: :asniper:

I'll bet you cannot defeat and outrank Flipzi. :banana:

Commando, please think before you post.