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Scoop, PN expresses an interest in acquiring Sea Wolves.

www.hueybravo.net - go the the Singapore Maritime Exhibition page.

More to come!

FINALLY!!! :fire:

the Philippine Navy suddenly had interest in acquiring those soon-to-be surplus Sea Wolf class FACs of the Singaporean Navy. i hope that our comrade from Singapore spiderweb could shed light on the specs of the Sea Wolves and their track record in Singaporean Navy service...

but the Sea Wolves will NOT be available until the arrival of all the Formidable class frigates. if the PN wants to have FACs now, then it should consider the surplus South African Jan Smuts/Warrior/Minister (Saar 4) class, German Tiger class, Greek Combattante II class and Israeli Saar 4 class FACs. :armywink:


Specs of the Singaporean Sea Wolf class FAC:

Displacement: 254 tons
Dimensions: 44.9 x 7 x 2.3 meters (147.3 x 23 x 7.5 feet)
Propulsion: 4 MTU 16V 538 TB92 diesels, 13460 hp, 4 shafts, 38 knots
Crew: 40
Armament: 4 Harpoon SSM (2 twin), 2 Gabriel SAMs, Mistral SAMs, 1 Bofors 57mm/70, 1 Bofors 40mm/70

Aren't the SEAWOLVES the UH-1B Huey helicopters of US Navy Helicopter Attack (Light) Squadron 3 during the Vietnam War? :aberet:

goodness! the PN will again let another opportunity pass... the chance of having missile-armed combat vessels. the PN plans to buy the Sea Wolf class FACs WITHOUT the missiles! :grrr:

Well, at least it'll simply be a matter of getting the missiles. :armygrin:

have you guys read my apology post in the ROTC section?

Sea wolfs of singapore? they are disposing it infavor of the Fremantles? and in turn we are buying it without the missiles i dont get the idea. or maybe our navy other kind of missiles to mount on its combatants.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/navy/assets_hardware.html

losing the missiles is ok, the money saved is better spent on sprucing up the engines and the hull anyway. these hulls are quite old (four launched 1972) but they were upgraded in the mid-80s. the design (Lurssen) is almost identical to the early SAAR and MINISTER classes, and Malaysia and Thailand bought similar boats, though i'm too lazy to check if these are still on strength. the Bofors gun afaik has never been in the PN inventory, and it's the old model, not the Mk3 selected by the USN and the USCG. upgrade?

as long as there aren't any nasty surprises, a solid move by the PN leadership. :thumb:

:agree:

the Singaporeans are disposing the Sea Wolf class missile boats in favor of the Formidable (La Fayette Delta) class guided-missile frigates.

i'm really wondering why the PN is dropping the opportunity of having missile-armed FACs in its inventory. even though the Sea Wolves are old ships, i think keeping the missiles (Gabriel SSMs, Mistral SAMs) will make them nastier. besides, all defense analysts keep on telling the Philippines that as long as the Philippines does not field credible missile systems, no country (even pirates and terrorists) will respect the Philippines.

if we are to buy the Singaporean Sea Wolf class FACs, BUY THE SHIPS ALONG WITH THE ANTI-SHIP AND AIR DEFENSE MISSILES THAT COME WITH THEM. :fire:

well, another hurdle would be: wouldn't a major weapon system like a missile need to go through a public bidding? maybe you can get the SEA WOLVES with the launchers but where do you get the missiles? parang a sneaky way around the rules, 'di ba? :crawling:

my bad: MINISTER-class is not identical to SEA WOLF/TNC-45, it's a purely Israeli innovation aka the RESHEF or SAAR 4-class. TNC-45 is up to SAAR 3 only. and four boats were built in Singapore from 1972, not launched all at once in that year. :armyredface:

Fremantle or non-missile SeaWolf, or even Cyvlones? There goes greater capability for the inshore fleet. Next question is what ships for the external/blue water fleet.

"Fremantle or non-missile SeaWolf, or even Cyvlones? There goes greater capability for the inshore fleet."

Yes without question but isn't better if it has missiles? a wolf without a fang does not scare anyone. :nono: or maybe the NAVY planners have other kind of arming these sea wolves from singapore. maybe they feel that missiles are already obsolete and they want better performing one. Once we purchase yhese vessels I can see another Jacinto like upgrade program for the sea wolves with top of the line missile system and heavier gun.

Fremantle? if the sea wolves are available then buy it first bcoz it has already the space for missiles system. Fremantle will be a bood buy though but the sae wolf will be a better deal it has a heavier punch.

i don't think the Harpoons, Gabriels and Mistrals that equip those Sea Wolves are obsolete. the Singaporeans have so much money that they never let their country's Armed Forces be left obsolete.

yes, the Sea Wolves are all but old missile boats but they can surely hit an enemy vessel hard with their quite powerful array of weapons.

if we are getting those Singaporean Sea Wolf class FACs, GET THE MISSILES TOO! :fire:

Specifications of the Sea Wolf class FACs (source:http://www.hazegray.org):

Displacement: 254 tons
Dimensions: 44.9 x 7 x 2.3 meters (147.3 x 23 x 7.5 feet)
Propulsion: 4 MTU 16V 538 TB92 diesels, 13460 hp, 4 shafts, 38 knots
Crew: 40
Armament: 4 Harpoon SSM (2 twin), 2 Gabriel SAMs, Mistral SAMs, 1 Bofors 57mm/70, 1 Bofors 40mm/70

You can find the details and a picture here as well if you havent looked yet.

http://www.hueybravo.net/SingaporMaritimeExhibition.htm
http://www.hueybravo.net

You'll notice that there are some differences between what Hazegray says the performance is and what Singapore says it is (38 vs 30 knots).

Actually, I think you have it the other way around, the Bofors 40mm installed on the SQ boats is the newer pattern - 40mm/70 cal. These are much newer. PN versions, Mk1 & 3 are actually WW2 guns taken from old ships and a 40mm/60 caliber (shorter length tubes basically).

The 57mm Bofors is the same as that used by the Canadians and is the same type chosen by the USCG to arm its new ships. This has never been in PN service.

38 knots brand new and short bursts only

i'm sorry but you're mistaken, sir. the gun on the foredeck of the SEA WOLF is clearly the original Mk1 version of the Bofors SAK 57mm DPG. the latest Mk3 version is easily identified by its stealth cupola, and was the one selected by the USN and the USCG, where it will be known as the Mk110. Canada only employs the Mk2. as for the 'classic' Bofors, i was only talking about the main gun.

Sea Wolf Missile Gunboats

1975 - Missile Gunboats

by Lim Gek Hong

The SAF commissioned its first three operational missile gunboats (MGB), the Sea Wolf, Sea Lion and the Sea Dragon on 22 Jan 1975. At the commissioning ceremony at Pulau Brani Naval Base, Dr Goh Keng Swee, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence complimented the Singapore Maritime Command1:

"To produce the manpower, to maintain ships and weapons systems in good order, to train ship crews to an acceptable level of operational efficiency - all these had to be done under the pressure of time and within the constraints of manpower and finance. It has been a very substantial effort..."

This was a key turning point in the development of the Navy. The impetus for this development came from the instability in Southeast Asia and Britain's stated intention in 1968 to withdraw its forces from the Far East. Developing the "seaward reach" of the SAF became a priority, to take on some of the tasks that the British Navy was performing.

The Commander of Maritime Command, the late LTC James Aeria, led a team on a mission in 1968 to choose the most suitable ships for the Navy. It was obvious that the advent of radars, missiles and electronics permitted smaller vessels to engage the larger naval vessels. Germany's MGBs from the Luerssen Shipyard, became the natural choice to patrol Singapore's territorial waters and beyond.

Of the three MGBs that were commissioned, two (the Sea Wolf and the Sea Lion) were constructed in West Germany. The third, the Sea Dragon was the first locally built missile gunboat. In fact, the Sea Dragon and three other MGBs were constructed by the Singapore Shipbuilding and Engineering Ltd at Sungei Benoi Basin in Jurong. commissioning the MGBs signalled that the Navy had not only advanced to a higher-level of naval combat capability, but that it also had the technical expertise to manage such projects and that Singapore's shipyards could rise to the challenge. The SAF's MGBs were equipped with Bofors 40mm and 57 mm guns that could engage surface as well as aerial targets. In addition, the ships were armed with the Gabriel sea-skimming missiles, which home in on targets by means of a sophisticated electronic guidance system.

The MGBs were already state-of-the-art naval strikecraft when acquired in the mid-1970s. As new technology became available, these MGBs underwent a number of upgrading programmes in the 80s and 90s to increase their strike capability and sophistication.

Today, with the acquisition of the missile corvettes, submarines and other naval assets, together with the quality training of our manpower and facilities, the MGBs continue to complement our naval forces to make the RSN an established regional force for peace.

awesome. :bow:

The Bofors 40mm/70 at the aft is already been replaced with Mistral (twin launcher) SAM, the photo i posted shows the Sea Wolf Class from the 1970's to year 2005 (manoks orbat). The changes is so extensive that you can see how it transformed from the one with only guns to SSM (1st with Gabriel, later Harpoon is added) and Mistral SAM.

RSN's MGB at it's present configuration is considered to be most potent ship for it's size.

Mistral for anti-aircraft as well as anti-missile roles.That was installed due to GW1 where Iraqi Navy was totally destroyed by all kind of missiles.

Gabriel SSM (25km)for short range surface engagement especially in litorial waters

Harpoon SSM with active radar guidance for long range OTH (140km)open sea engagement.

Lastly 57mm gun for limited anti surface & air engagement.

Even it was constantly upgraded and still very potent, RSN still need to upgrade with better ships with respect to the limited manpower, thus retirement of this class.

I believe at it's present form , many navies will certainly don't mind having them.

:agree:

Better for the PN to continue acquiring those Patrol Killer Boats or Sea dolphin Class from Korea, rather than buying Sea Wolf Class minus its armaments. Peace to all.

I guess we are both right but I guess that I did not explain myself properly. What I meant was the 57mm chosen by the coast guard & USN is a newer development of this gun, but it is basically the same gun incorporating improvements in stealthiness and operability.

That said, thanks for the correction.

Manokski: is there any official word from the Philippine Navy regarding the intention of getting the Sea Wolf class FACs from Singapore? :?:


again, if we are to buy those Sea Wolf, BUY THE SHIPS ALONG WITH THE MISSILES! :fire: :fire: :fire:

All I can say is that the news was given by an official source. PN officials including the Chief of Naval Staff and officials from the Modernization Office actually inspected some boats. How official do you want or can you get? That said, it is a negotiation. It is up to Singapore to sell it or transfer it to us and of course, the price has to be right.

As for the missiles, SQ is using the harpoons elsewhere and they cannot transfer the missiles without US approval (third party sale is prohibited). As for the Gabriels, rumor has it they are time expired.

IMHO, these boats are much much better than the Freemantles. For one thing the SQ boats are true Fast Attack Craft. The Freemantles are large patrol boats. Big difference. The SQ boats are only in the middle of their expected lifespans. The Freemantles are at the end. The SQ Navy is decommisioning them not because they are old or hard to maintain but because they need to free up the manpower for their new Frigates. The RAN is decommisioning the Freemantles because they are old and increasingly hard to maintain.

Further, the SQ boats leave a lot of room for the PN to improve on - when funds are available they can be re-armed with missiles very easily, drag and drop to use computer terms. Pound for pound the SQ boats are more heavily armed than the Freemantles even if you consider gun armament alone. Speaking of guns, the Freemantles carry modernized 40mm/L60 - basically modernized WW2 guns. The SQ boats gun armament is much more modern.

What the Aussies say about the Fremantles.

http://www.defence.gov.au/budget/02-03/dar...forcestruct.htm

Manokski: i'm sorry too i guess i should have spoken more clearly the first time, sir.

the PN better move fast if they're really interested, these boats are surely attracting a lot of inquisitive buyers. the Royal Thai Navy has 3 PRABRARAPAK-class MGBs which are almost identical to the Singapore SEA WOLF, they are likely our toughest competitor if ever.

losing the missiles may be inevitable but it's a blessing in disguise since the PN then has the option of selecting something that really fits its strategy; for example, getting the HARPOON SSM makes sense because it's compatible with the SEA WOLF's radar, but the HARPOON is a jack-of-all trades system with a lot of compromises, an alternative might be Sweden's RBS15 Mk3 which is designed for true littoral warfare, Germany and Poland are the first export customers.

as for AAW, a lightweight remote-controlled gun system like Singapore's own Naval Remote Weapon System, which can fire Oerlikon's Air Bursting Munition and can be mounted with SAMs like MISTRAL; or the PN can go for the best there is, which might be the awesome Oerlikon MILLENIUM revolver cannon; not sure if GOALKEEPER or KASHTAN can fit on SEA WOLF.

SEA WOLF is the best choice and we should be behind the PN 100% on this one :armycheers:

Manokski: i'm happy that PN officials are at least doing something to bring the fleet up to "modern" standards but it will be much better if they will be able to bring Sea Wolf class FACs with missiles. :drunk: :demon:

perhaps we can seek Israeli assistance in getting more modern versions of the Gabriel SSM for the Sea Wolves if ever we will get them. of course, we will have no problems with the French if ever we will have Mistrals on the Sea Wolves. :fire:

"the PN better move fast if they're really interested, these boats are surely attracting a lot of inquisitive buyers. the Royal Thai Navy has 3 PRABRARAPAK-class MGBs which are almost identical to the Singapore SEA WOLF, they are likely our toughest competitor if ever.

losing the missiles may be inevitable but it's a blessing in disguise since the PN then has the option of selecting something that really fits its strategy; for example, getting the HARPOON SSM makes sense because it's compatible with the SEA WOLF's radar, but the HARPOON is a jack-of-all trades system with a lot of compromises, an alternative might be Sweden's RBS15 Mk3 which is designed for true littoral warfare, Germany and Poland are the first export customers.

as for AAW, a lightweight remote-controlled gun system like Singapore's own Naval Remote Weapon System, which can fire Oerlikon's Air Bursting Munition and can be mounted with SAMs like MISTRAL; or the PN can go for the best there is, which might be the awesome Oerlikon MILLENIUM revolver cannon; not sure if GOALKEEPER or KASHTAN can fit on SEA WOLF.

SEA WOLF is the best choice and we should be behind the PN 100% on this one"

Indeed a good start. PN should not let this opportunity go they should negotiate to get all those MGB's. :exactly:

The PRABRARAPAK-class MGB were build by ST as well, after our MGBs, almost exactly the same as our MGB of the 70s, but according to sources, the Thai has already removed their time expired Gabriel w/o replacing them , so the Thai PRABRARAPAK-class are gun armed only.

Our Sea Wolf class MGBs are completely different now compare to when they first launched.

One thing, the boats has many local " black" technology like ECM , ECCM etc.

I am not sure whether we will release them to PN.

Anyway, all 6 Formindable class stealth frigate will only be commissioned by 2009, so there is still few year before we retired our MGBs.

Question guys, If ever PN is successfull to let the Singaporeans transfer their Sea Wolf class without those mighty armaments like harpoons, Gabriel,Mistral.,

is their any possibility that they(singapore) will also take out those important/advanced electronics or sensor suite(ECM, ECCM, radar) that guide those missiles?? What I mean is downgrade the ship.

I hope PN will negotiate to include the missiles. Peace to all.

Very nice acquisition to the PN.

Do you have photos of PRABRARAPAK-class MGBs? Both the earlier version armed with Gabriel and the latest one believed to be without missile? I really appreciate it. One more thing, any Thai military forum i can go visit? I need to see more photo of thailand's weapon.

If you want to visit Thai military forums, go here:

http://www.tmb.co.th/merger2/eng/aboutus/board.html

http://www.tmb.co.th/merger2/index_th.html

http://www.rta.mi.th/

http://www.rtaf.mi.th/

http://www.navy.mi.th/


Look into these sites to see more specs; but the problem is it is in Thai script lol. There some English versions so good luck!


Cheers my Filipino friends.

The above picture is form SG' mindef website, it is the Sea wolf class.

thanks for the link, by the way i'm interested on the thai PRABRARAPAK-class MGBs not our Sea Wolf that you posted.