why are our helicopter gunships under the air force and not the army? di ba mas mabuti under army control ang mga hellicopter for better coordination and support of our soldiers in combat?

honestly I don't know, but IMO, the PA will be better off if the support helos are onboard.

I agree with this, integrated rotorcraft assets manned by organic Army personnel is the best way to provide on-demand, on-time material and CAS to the ground fighters.

I think this is just a matter of political will - enacting a law ceding some of the PAF helos and fixed-wing COIN aircrfat to PA control.

What organic army personnel?

Easier said than done. How can the Army operate helicopters when they do not have qualified pilots and crews to operate them, no maintenance facilities, no training programs. For that matter, where would the army get senior rated officers with the experience levels to command those air units envisioned?

Let's not assume that transferring the aircraft would include transferring the air crews. Many of those helicopter pilots would rather not transfer to the army. An air force colonel would not accept a change of branch of service just to command an army air unit where his career opportunities are limited and he has very slim chances of getting promoted to command positions. It is the same with the younger pilots.

The current doctrine on employment of air assets suits our armed forces pretty well given scarce resources. The air force owns, operates and maintains the helicopters but the ground commanders in the operating areas have operational control over the air assets available to them.

If I am an army brigade commander and I have helicopters attached to me during operations, under my operational command, with an air officer attached to my staff to advise me, what should I be complaining about? No need for me to worry about servicing, maintenance, armament and the paper work of operating those choppers. I have the best of both worlds. I would probably complain if an air force captain refuses to let me use the helicopter for purposes it was not employed for. Like using it as an air taxi or worse, using close air support assets instead of infantry to capture a ground objective.

Call this the case of the army tail wagging the air power dog.

My 112 centavos worth.

He will, if ordered to do so. He's just a military officer after all sworn to obey all lawful orders.


:armyroleyes:

Seriously...things don't work that way in the armed forces. Sure, maybe you can order some or even all but your ordered can be translated like:

"You are ordered to transfer branch of service to the army...where you will be assured promotion up to colonel, but none for general...where there will be only one senior command position in army aviation...sorry hijo, you can't get into armor, infantry, engineers, or artillery...you're just a pilot...don't worry, there will be plenty of flying for you, guaranteed combat areas pa...in the meantime don't be envious of your peers who stayed in the air force when they get their coveted command positions...and stars..."

Just consider what career path will these guys have in the army? You can't go on flying for the rest of your life in the army. You still have to consider career and growth opportunities. How many generals can you have in t he army air corps? aber?

What kind of an army air corps will you have now when the pilots it gets are serving against their will? Only because they were ordered? Baka asking them to volunteer to join the PNP will be easier pa.

The point here is...if it ain't broke...why fix it?

US Army helos are mostly piloted by Chief Warrant Officers many of whom are promoted to higher, non-flying commands.

Army thinking looks at the helicopter as a vehicle much like a tank or AFV. The pilot is just a driver.

That's how the US Army solved that problem. I beg to disagree on CWOs being promoted to higher command positions. Definitely not even a squadron, group or wing command (company, battalion or regiment in army parlance). Warrant Officer pilots in the army aviation command actual flying units on missions. They are qualified to lead in the air but not to serve at command level billets. Have you ever heard of a CWO as a battalion commander?

Warrant officers are neither enlisted persons nor are they commissioned officers. They are warrant officers performing duties in their area of specialization. The Philippine Army does not have a warrant officer rank or seniority structure.

Letting the army assume total responsibility for rotary wing aviation in the Philippines without establishing certain pre-requisites will be an exercise in disaster simply becuase the army has little experience levels in that business.

The army's experience in helicopters is that of a customer. Not as provider of the service.

i dont think it is very difficult to transfer air force pilots to army together with the helicopters, i think its just a matter of proper law authorizing the transfer. i really believe that the army will be most effective if the air assets are directly under its commande or even creating airmobile brigades rather than just relying on air force assets.

Kindly read my previous posts. You are assuming that the army does not have control over tactical helicopters in support of ground operations. That is not the case.

The air assets are directly under the operational control of the ground commanders in the areas of operation. That is already the situation today and has been since time immemorial.

"... current doctrine on employment of air assets suits our armed forces pretty well given scarce resources. The air force owns, operates and maintains the helicopters but the ground commanders in the operating areas have operational control over the air assets available to them. "

The army does not need the headache of maintaining, cleaning, washing, fixing, storing and securing the airplane. It does not need to train, administer and manage the aircrews. It does not need to be burdened by the need to maintain forward operating bases. All of that is done by the air force.

What the army (even the marines) wants is operational control of the helicopter when it needs it as provided for by current doctrine. They already have that. That is what they want.

The army wants to be the customer, not the service provider.

What is wrong with that arrangement?

Im in total agreement with Pendejo's opinions. If its not broken then theres no need to fix it.

:armysmile:

ahhh good points but theres also no harm in trying - t create a purely army air cavalry regiment just to see if it works ok in the philippine setting :rifle:

That idea was already considered and beaten to death. In fact it was already tried.

During the time of PA Commanding General Rafael Zagala, the army sent officers for flying training with the air force in the early 70s. Among those officers were Eduardo Jonson, Roderico Castro, Marlo Mensalvas, Teodoro Lasmarias, Arsenio Santos, Ernesto Nano. Gregorio Honasan and the late Franklin Brawner were originally considered but declined. Those army pilots were initially assigned with the air force to acquire flying time and experience levels.

Following them were many more officers (among many others, Victor Abat, Rolando Cabanban, Nicolas Ojeda, Jaime Caringal, Carlos Taganas, Chito Mangubat, et al) who were trained by the army through civilian contract flying schools. The army later outsourced undergraduate pilot training to general aviation flying schools using Cessna 150s and later outsourced helicopter training using Hughes 500 aircraft. Several classes of officers completed those courses. They trained mechanics and crewmen on their own, sending personnel to aviation craft schools. An Army Aviation Brigade was organized. Army aviation wings were authorized. By the time the army had home grown army aviators with some experience levels generated, their initial crop of pilots were too senior and had career decisions to make.

It didn't work, economics primarily, and doctrine wise. After many years of trying to build up that capability, GHQ planners and the army gave up. The Army Aviation Brigade was dissolved and downsized to a battallion and eventually a small "aeroscout" company attached to the Army Light Armored Brigade with a Beechcraft Queenair, a handful of Cessnas, no helicopters, used mainly for liaison, ferry and administrative duties.

It would be nice and romantic for the army to have it's own tactical air arm. For that matter why not give the marines their own airplanes if you have the money. There are other users too. Government agencies such as the department of health, social welfare administration, DPWH, DILG, congress and other executive agencies who use air force helicopters. They are all customers.

Wanting the army to have it's own tactical air capability are captives of a romantic notion but are in denial that this is just unattainable economically. It would be like creating a separate air force for the army. Later, the marines would want their own too. Then how about other government agencies? One cannot create an air force overnight. It takes years. The army today has a shortage of 900 second lieutenants. It has bigger problems than trying to create it's own air force. It is happier being the air force's customer.

A more logical move would be to transform the air force's Tactical Operations Command into an AFP Tactical Operations Command with elements coming from all branches of service. Likewise with an AFP Special Operations Command.

Dream on boys but don't beat a dead horse to death.

:armysmile:

no need for the PA to have organic air assets like helicopters and fixed wing CAS, the pressing need is for UAVs which will greatly enhance the Army's operational intelligence and combat environment awareness...

my query pendejo if you happen to know - what is the status of the PA's UAV acquisition efforts?

I haven't followed the UAV project. Last I know, the army was evaluating a locally made, army developed UAV. I think an imported model was tested, acquired then crashed and burned. I will ask around and find out. This should be a separate thread, don't ya think so?

We are on the same side on the acquisition of UAVs. The army needed that like years ago.

:agree:

army has qualified pilots in the PALAR, and rotary wings should be under army control.. first of all, it's needed for logistics, Air to Ground Operations and for MEDEVAC.. one of the doctrine used by the Philippines is the air-land battle doctrine.. now under this doctrine rotary assets are used for anti-tank, fire support, mobility and other kinds of operation to support the ground troops..rotary assets should be in the hand of army pilots because its their comrades that are fighting and bleeding to death.. asan yung air force pag may request na MEDEVAC? hindi daw makalipad kasi gabi na or baka masira yung chopper... they think so much about the equipments than the lives of filipino soldiers.. ayaw lang ng PAF na ibigay yung mga Hueys sa PA kasi wala na silang paliliparin.. PAF pilots has no enough numbers of fixed wing assets to fly pag nagkataon.. puro AIR na lang, wala ng FORCE.
:asniper: :crawling: :sniper:

Wow! Talaga? Qualified for what?

onli in da pilipins....

tank drivers that are also helo pilots.... :drunk:

air reconaissance of the LABde includes pilots who fly cessna plane, all of them are graduates of flying school, civilian and military.. if you still doubt their capability, ask them what they can do.. visit them at their home in tarlac.

I do not doubt their capabilities hijo. I know their capabilities. Obviously you haven't read my earlier posts.

Not to put our army aeroscout pilots down but do you really expect these guys to fly combat helicopters? Lead squadrons in combat with the experience they have in their Cessnas? Do you have any idea how little flying time they have? How many hours they've flown in formation? In combat? Under fire? In adverse weather? How many of them have actually commanded an air unit of even just 8 aircraft?

...as you quoted "professional soldiers are predictable but the world is full of dangerous amateurs."

why ar you so adamant against PA having its own air assets pendejo?

other armies around the world have their organic air components and they are doing fine, why be concerned more with promotion or professional growth of the pilots in army service when the organization as a whole should benefir and not the individual soldier/officer?

My friend Caterwaul.

The issues have to do with control over tactical air assets. Not ownership. The ground units (army and marines) want operational control. The area commanders already have control over tactical aircraft in their area of operations. I hope you understand what I am saying.

Other armies have organic air components. True. A question of economics really. Especially rich countries who can afford it. Especially countries who have not been fighting an insurgency and seccesionist movement for more than 30 years.

Fact 1. Our army cannot maintain its own air arm. Even the air force can barely maintain itself...and dont forget the marines. We simply have no money.

Fact 2. Our armed forces cannot afford to lose any initiative in current campaigns if we have to let army aviation go through the learning curve.

Fact 3 The army aviation brigade was already tried and set aside. A very expensive exercise.

Fact 4. More importantly, despite limited numbers, the ground commanders already have operational control over helicopters. That is more important than owning, maintaining and servicing the helicopters.

You guys seem to be fixated on the army having it's own helicopters when what is at issue is operational control. If my private agricultural company owns three Bell 205s (Huey) and I allow the army to use them in Mindanao. Does it not accomplish that objective? I'll even allow them to paint it olive drab. Same with the current setup today.

I just wish to share with you fact, reality and a little history behind current doctrine. But feel free to dream, it's a free country. Why do I sound like I know something? Hmmmm, maybe I've been there and done that. Maybe I wrote a paper on it once upon a time.

:urpointis:

maybe pendejo is air force officer thats why he doesnt like to be transferred to army as pilot he will not be promoted very fast, unlike the air force where the pilots outnumber the airplanes and helicopters :rifle:

That was Kabayong Budlat's original thread folks. Poor Pendejo was just giving the less informed a factual answer. The real score. The way it is. The unadulterated reality. Pendejo never said it is not good for the army to own or have control over helicopters. Seems this is a very emotional issue for some people. Why so escapes me.

But this is a free country, and you can dream all you want and be as emotional as you want to be. Heck...it's even your right to be pikon if you want to.

I'm enjoying my retirement, Hoyhoyhoy. Maybe in the next life I will want to join the army...and that would be with the infantry.

:drunk:

LETS GO ARMY!!! Go ahead.. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir
:fire: :crawling: :sniper:

THAT'S A CRITICAL FACTOR.

LET'S HOPE THAT THE AFP CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.

THEY DON'T NEED TO BE DIRECTLY UNDER THE ARMY THOUGH.

AIR ASSETS YAN EH.

UPGRADED HUEYS AND SUPER COBRAS WOULD DO GREAT FOR THE GROUND TROOPS..

THEY EVEN USE THE SAME ENGINE ...(as per Jake Navarro / SR Clubhouse)

Jake said that these are the best choice as well considering economy and performance.

Dudes, what are the airborne units of the PhilArmy? Is there a regimental size airborne unit ?

Special Forces Regiment

Based in Fort Magsaysay, in Nueva Ecija.

Known Alias: SF... Airborne...

Pres. Fidel Ramos organized that group.



Photo?

see Strike Musangs..

then ... Victors as One...



Details?

batwentyone
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/batwentyone/Army.html



:armycheers:

yan sana ang ideal pero di praktikal sa pinas, walang dinero eh

What is the current status of the Philippine Army aviation?
All I know that they use Ft. Magsaysay and had the following aircraft:
Be 65-80 PA-701
Ce 170 PA-682
Ce 172 PA-891 and 892
Ce 206 PA-911 and 912
Ce 421 PA-872

All info is welcome.

This will be a very interesting thread! :specool:

This will help us how we can improve the air support setup for our infantry units.

It is a fact though that some BG may take a hint from that but we all know that they knew much about it anyway.

It is better if we discuss it nonetheless, because with that we can analyze how we can improve the Army aviation unit. :thumb:

what aircraft are those?

Beechcraft Queen Air - twin engine light transport
Cessna 170 - single engine
Two (2) Cessna 172 - single engine
Two (2) Cessna 206 - single engine
Cessna 421 - light twin

Good for hauling people and stuff around. Observation and recon. Transportation for generals. Air ambulance. Maybe dropping grenades.

Did you notice General Garcia wearing army aviator wings?

more like light transport aircraft to me.

are these planes configured for CAS?

CAS, I wish!

Maybe putting grenades inside a nescafe glass bottle and dropping them. :specool:

Seriously, with those aircraft the army has at least some liaison and observation capability.

man, you sure is one happy cynic... :armysmile:

Fort Magsaysay can be a strategic station for the Air Force's Composite Tactical Air Support unit.

Put a couple or 2 of "MD520 Defender" attack choppers there and few more Huey's, that base shall give our infantry THE NEEDED MORALE BOOSTER while they are on a mission.

:thumb:

the army better think this is a good idea, our army have its own aviation unit with apache longbow attack helicopters

"Our army have its own aviation unit with apache longbow attack helicopters."

While the Philippine Army has always been on the losing side of a long and nasty, very bloody counter-insurgency campaign in the Southern portion of the Philippines at least the Philippine Army has COMBAT Experience!

When was the last time the Royal Singapore Armed Forces shed an enemy's blood?

War Games, Training scenerios, Laser markers on Rifles, etc are all fine and dandy, but there is NO substitute for Combat Experience!

Possessing high quality, throughly modern weaponary is great, but a total lack of using it ever in COMBAT is not!

Singapore needs to send Combat Forces on oversee's Peace Keeping Enforcement operations.

Then they boast all they want.

BTW, the only reasons why the Philippine Army is on the losing side is due to corruption, and lack of funding.

Good points have been stated by all.

I'd just like to add that -eventually- it would be in the best interest for 'both' branches (Army and Airforce) to transfer all utility & gunship helicopters (UH-1H Huey/MG-520Ds, helicopter pilot training, maintenance and ownership over to the Philippine Army for two reasons.

One, perhaps the most important is this would finally allow the Philippine Air Force to concentrate it's resources, will and strategic thinking into developing itself to project decisive AirPower for deterring external threats.

Historically, over many years the PAF has been basically a Tactical Air Force to provide air support to the Philippine Army mainly in CAS, COIN, Forward Air Control, Trooplift, SAR, and Heavy Transport roles.

The Phil' Army could and 'ought to be given the oppurtunity to develop it's own organic Avaition Companies equiped with Defender and Huey Helicopters with a few Fixed-Wing assets like Cessna Caravan I's, Beech King Air 100's and Cessna 172s for Light Transport, VIP, and Training roles respectively.

Then the Phil' Air Force would still provide Close Air Support, Ground Attack and FAC missions in close direct support for the Army. The Army does not need nor require fixed-wing combat aircraft ever that is only the job for the PAF.

However, this is of course redundant at this point in history as there is NO Funding and no vision. NO Funding is the core reason period.

The Philippine Air Force needs to be able to devote serious resources and funding for providing a crediable defense of the nation against countering External Threats.

Joint Phil' Army Aviation/PAF Units equipped with Huey & Defender helicopters and OV-10A Bronco FAC/COIN aircraft and light tactical transports organized like they are now would continue to do so in concert with eachother throughout different regions of the Philippines.

But the PAF would then be free to concentrate core assets and funding to transferring itself and it's core capabilities for Xternal Defence.

Make no mistake, the internal threat(s) are REAL, but so are the overdue, overlooked strategic threats that the Philippines are facing.

NO Funding = we can all dream right now and nothing more.

The question is How Bad Is It Going To Get?

The Philippine Air Force has NO Tactical Jet Fighters, none.

NO replacement Maritime Patrol Aircraft

NO replacement for the flawed N-22 Nomad Tactical Transport Aircraft

NO Funding for TRAINING New Pilots on economical Cessna T-41Ds nor SF-260TPs.

It's pathetic how far down the slick slippery slope the Philippine Air Force has fallen. And it appears the government is willing to let it go even more assets!

Corruption is endemic in the Philippines and nobody has any solution nor cares enough to deal with it on any realistic level. The Philippine Air Force will be doomed to being a 3rd rate poorly equipped 'tactical only' Airforce.