I am in Cebu and I see these commercial passenger fastcraft catamaran boats like Supercat and OceanJet plying the routes to neighboring islands. Would it be posible for these boats to be converted to navy patrol / attack boat cheaply?

Considering the HSVs that visited the Philippines, it could be. With some assistance from the PN as to requirements militarily, it could be done. There are special equipments and defense systems that are being sold by modules that can be fitted easily.

The SKJOLD missile corvette of Norway is one example of this type only that its a trimaran.

very fast, very quiet but heavily armed. We could do the same with our Catamarans

http://wwwhttp://www.naval-technology.com/...ld/skjold2.html

As weve been discussing in the other thread about the catamaran and trimaran vessel its a good addition for troops mobilization in southern mindanao especially in zamboanga-basilan-sulo corriedor.

Trimaran version of the Supercat family was already utilized by the company Cebu Fast Ferries Corp. and FMBI already exported much of their Supercat variants in the world. So only consulation for us was the job created by this company. For now our DND has no sign on dealing about this vessel.

Sabi nga nila in times of war the AFP can utilize the said vessel and its been already signed and established. Kaya no interest pa ngayon ang taga AFP.

above is the trimaran littoral combat ship that the US is ordering, the hull is based on a passenger ferry ship, the shipyards in cebu can actually make a similar ship easily.

Do we need this type of vessel for our PN?


Found these in the net:



being sold for about USD5 Million (BTW, how much is the new one built here?) Savings gained could be used for weapons module upgrades or reconfiguration to have a helipad and hangar at the back.

http://www.shiplink.info/contents1.asp?refno=5593



a smaller one, probably cost a little lesser

http://www.shiplink.info/contents1.asp?refno=7822

I made a comparison of the HSV-X1's cargo stowage plan with the smaller vessel and got this:



Looks similar, right guys? Instead of buses and cars, it could accomodate our APCs. Speed at 30 - 35 knots.

Highly applicable here, could be employed to transport rapid reaction forces from one island to another in visayas and Mindanao.

FBMA has consturcted already this type of unit why not modify the civilian deisgn into a military configuration?

http://www.seatransport.com/data/videos/60cat.wmv


Isn't it worth considering for our part?



Overall length: 64.14 me

Waterline length: 57.8 m

Beam (molded): 17.0 m

Draft: 2.5 m

Passengers: 1,300

Cars: 58 or a mix of cars and trucks

Main engines: 4 x Cat 3508B 620 kW @ 85%MCR

Gearboxes: Reintjes WAF 143 reverse reduction gearboxes

Propellers: 4 x Teignbridge AMW polished 5 blade

Service Speed: 15 knots

Deadweight: 350 tonnes

:exactly: And not only that, can be used to evacuate stranded Pinoys like those at Sabah before and other future events. :armywink:

I fully agree sa inyong lahat ... SIMULAN ng umorder ... Daming pakinabang dito, kahit yata mini floating hospital or clinic pwede ito ...

In my opinion ... PANALO tayo dito ... I mean ROI speaking ... laking tulong ito. Basta magamit lang sa tamang gawain ha .. at sana mabilisan pa ng konti yung speed ...

:agree: GRABE!!! this is the perfect naval transport vessel for the PN! lalo na kung inter-island operations like from mindanao to jolo, sulu or southern luzon to mindoro up to cebu... these are fast (faster than LSTs) and can carry a sizeable military formation (a battalion-size infantry with supporting vehicles and equipment) - as per specs from the civilian version) to any trouble-spots within the philippines (can these be used also to support the spratly's group??)...

... why not invest on these NOW? these should be one of the priorotized projects of the AFP for the PN (fast-track projects), don't you think comrades??

... or i may be wrong...

Teka ... magkano ba ito? mga ilan taon para magawa ito?

Nasaan na ba si CityHunter ... baka pwede ito na lang ipush nya sa mga kilala nya na officials kesa dun sa F-20, I mean unahin ito kesa dun sa F-20 ...

sorry pareng Cityhunter for dragging you to this issue he hehe ikaw kasi ang may kakilala eh ..

no offence ha ... peace :patrioticpinoy:

Predator,

If we want to think of the value of this ship for me its priceless. why? stress free in repair,manageable in service and maintainance coz FBMA is just in heart of the Philippines. True filipino craftsmanship although designed by an Australian firm but the molders and makers of the ship is true world class filipino work.

When it comes to time? Lets take to consideration that civilian version are more easy to construct than the military version. Why coz modifying the design itself will also take time. they go back in the drawing board also.Military equipment and sensors will take time also in importing plus integration. When it comes to the building/construction part i think they can carry it specially in the past experience of one of my friend working inside the complex where they cut the time of construction of the fast ferries which is now doing service in Hongkong.

Construction of Naval vessels in the country is just in the other block of our archipelago. Why not aim for the real things. Buildings ships is one of those.

HMmmm, kahit pa siguro abutin ng 4 years to make to transform this civilian to military vessel ... correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert in shipbuilding .. ok lang siguro yung time, pero wag naman sobra tagal ...

Pero mga magkano kaya ito???

Kahit saan ko tingnan win-win tayo dito :armycheers:

:agree: i totally agree!!! pwede eto sa mga short-term, fast tracked projects sa modernization program ng AFP.

... sir city hunter, i really think our armed forces, specially the PN, really need these kind of vessels, can you push this to your "connections" within the gov't? sir predator is right, this is a win-win solution because these ships can be multi-purpose also (can be used for disaster-relief, evacuation of civilians to calamity areas, logistics, medevacs, and so-fort) or i may be wrong...

To shorten weapons upgrades why not apply the concept of the

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/fly/

With those modular/containerised weapon systems and equipment I believe would speed up the process. Maybe even buying those used fast catamarans and ROROs in the market would even make it easier in answering our immediate needs. All we have to do is have it set-up in our local shipyards.

^ i definitely agree with your post, comrade saver. we could perhaps integrate into those locally-designed catamarans modularized weapons systems that can fit into the specific needs of the Navy.

so... any idea of how a modified catamaran must be redesigned in order to fit itself with the requirements of the PN?

^ For what purpose the military version of catamaran is intended?

- Offshore/Inshore Patrol
- Fast Mobilization of Forces
- Litoral Combat ship
- etc

We can chose two version of catamaran vessel intended for fast mobilization of forces.




For fast mobilization of forces the Catamaran can be fitted with light helicopter deck, decoys, light missiles, and machine guns for armament. Basic civilian packages already includes radar,sonar,night vision camera and civilian communication module. Military version can be added with thermal imaging camera, and military radar, military communication module, and others.In this part this is more applicable in our part to augment our older ship.

The other side of the catamaran design is that it cannot deployed in a rough sea condition for patrol duties specially in south china sea and in Pacific Ocean area in a longer time due to the risk that it might break the stabilizer platfrom of the ship. I remember when is ride a Supercat from Cebu-Dumaguete(3 yrs ago) the vessel is delayed about 2 hours because of rough sea condition in which they have to calm the sea first before they can start to deaprt.

Ok lang yun sir .. kung pang-transport lang ng tao ... pero does this mean di na sya pwede bilisan pa ... kasi kung tama yung sinasabi mo na hindi pwede sa rough seas ... di pareho lang pag binilisan pa ...

Well again I'm no expert in shipbuilding ... baka naman it applies to every boat ...

Question guys ... mas mabilis ba itong Catamaran na ito kesa mga PN LST? kaya kaya mamodify ito para makalapit sa shorelines na tulad nung sa PN?

kung Oo lahat ... kalimutan muna na natin yung pagbili ng mga gawang abroad na LST ... eto na lang. Kuha lang tayo ng mga good points sa design ng mga military LST para ma-iadapt natin dito sa Pinoy made na CATAMARAN ...

Pag nagkataon baka maibenta pa natin ito sa ibang bansa ... tingin nyo .. :thumb: Porma pa lang modern na modern na ang dating he he he. Palagay ko ang laki ng potential nito ...

The HSV-X1 has a speed of 30 - 48 knots

The Commercial catamarans on the first page

1. Orange - 30 - 35.5 Knots (with similar engine type of the HSV-X1)
2. Sea Bird - 27 - 34.8 Knots

Looking on the Sea Bird, I believe a Helipad and Hangar could be implaced thru our local shipyards that of course if a budget could be allocated, but the same, the vessels are there and readily usable. Acquiring those second hand vessels is cheaper than acquring those dedicated slow moving LSTs. Any savings can then be used to buy the armaments or equipments needed. The Orange catamaran is being sold for USD5 Million. I don't know how the local newly builts cost.

The four HSV of the U.S. are all just under leased. The HSV-X1 is on a USD20 M 2 year contract.

The U.S. Army's TSV-1X Spearhead has plans for improvement as follows:

So this means that the present HSVs could be lightly armed.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/hsv.htm

Other options are the conventional RO-ROs with speeds from 20 to 28 knots. More faster than LSTs

Like this one:



which could be turned into something like this:



The hangars and helipads could be done here. and maybe put about 2 pairs of davits on both sides for LCMs or maybe launch RHIBs. I just don't know if amphibians could be launch thru the ramps maybe small hovercrafts will do but with the availability of our shipyards maybe this could be modified.

With that set-up, you now have a mother ship.

Mabilis na rin pala ... comparable or even faster than other warships of other countries ....

Talking of speed ... Tila comparable nga yata dun sa SAAR ng mga Israeli .. tama ba ako? ... correct me if I'm wrong ...

I smell money here ... he he he

laking opportunity nito ... trabaho para sa mga taga-south ... Dollars para sa mga manufacturer and the government ...

If I'm not mistaken, pasensya na medyo makakalimutin .. parang mas mabilis pa itong CATAMARAN kesa dun sa SAR na binili natin sa Australia ... correct me if I'm wrong again .. ... kaya, .. kaya nito mag full speed kung fully loaded ? I wonder ... pero pag naupgrade na ito into military standard kaya na siguro ...

Haaay .... kailangan lang natin bumili muna ang AFP para masabing tinangkilik natin yung sariling atin ... at pakita natin sa buong mundo na very epektib itong CATAMARAN .... RIGHT ADVERTISING lang yan .. sagwa lang ng pangalan mga bro he hehe ...

Pero teka sabi ni Jammerjamesky 15 knots ang service speed ... well kailangan talaga pabilisin ... kaya pa ba?

Just imagine kapag may malaking land or sea disaster eto ang gagamitin ... tapos makikita sa media ... TV or print ads ... New Philippine Navy SAR or LST or floating hospital .... or warship? ....

DAMN ... sisikat ang NAVY or sinong mang Heneral or Admiral ang mag-pupush or magi-initiate nito ... lalo na kung may pulitikong backer ...

Ano sa palagay nyo Generals, Admirals or Politicians ... its about time ... kayo din baka maunahan kayo ... laking leverage nito .. Poging-pogi kayo nito ... palagay ko kahit hindi nyo taga-distrito iboboto kayo uli ... he hehe ...

And we will praise you sir ... pag naibili nyo kami nito ... :armygrin:

:thumb:

Catamaran are water jet propulsion system thats why they have a greater speed than the Tenix SAR boats of the PCG. But if we wanted also to modify the propulsion system of the SAR Boats the water jet propulsion system can be added also to boost the speed of the vessel.

Here is a good site in which you can fully understand how the Water Jet Propulsion system work, the wave piercing Catamaran design,Ropax vessel, and others.

http://www.solentwaters.co.uk/Vessel%20Typ...%203/page3.html


Ropax of foriegn made is also same concept used in FBMA made.


Exit nozzle of the large water jet.


To help ride comfort in rough conditions, some vessels are fitted with computer controlled hydraulic motion dampening systems. This typically consists of aerofoil fins at the bows of the vessel.

in my honest opinion, a PN vessel based on a catamaran design would be more useful as a transport vessel than as a fast attack craft. the relatively faster speed and the relatively large accomodatios of a catamaran vessel would hasten PN's inter-island transport.

however, i am not discounting the possibility of an FAC based on the catamaran design. if someone here has an idea on how a catamaran-based FAC would work well for the Philippine Navy, please share such idea to us here in the forum. :armysmile:

that seems to be a good frigate design for the Philippine Navy. :armysmile:

now we all agree on one common issue: this isssue on using this catamaran type of vessel for PN use (fast transport/logistics, or as FAC), as well as being built here in the philippines. this is a win-win solution as per all of your comments and suggestions.

... now this is the question: is the government and/or AFP closing their eyes or turning a blind on this very obvious issue? e dapat nuon pa nakita na eto ng AFP and the committee on military affairs within the senate/congress and the gov't itself. this is a great boost for our government as well as our military! if it is built here, malamang maraming countries oorder ng civilian (ginagawa na) as well as military application of this vessel, then dagdag sa economy natin eto because you not only create more jobs, you promote your country in building one the best damn sea vessels in the world, built by filipino hands (one of the best in the world take note...)

i hope our positive views and comments on this obvious issue will take the attention of the AFP and the government... i hope our pdff members who are present politicians and military personnel would pass this serious issue to the senate/congress/AFP/president or kung sino pa ang mga kakilala nila sa taas.

hoping...

How about puting this topic to Print Ads like Editorial .. tutal yung mga pulitiko dun madalas magbasa ... :armyeek:

Or in some Official Philippine military website or AFP newsletter or newspaper ...

Magkano kanyo yung military corvette na inorder natin nuon na hindi naman natuloy ... tsk tsk .. USD200 M ... Halos 2 years kung sinubaybayan at inantay na mangyari ... wala rin :headbang:


Eto USD5 M ... well I know its incomparable ... but still malayo pa rin parang pagdito talaga ginawa baka dun sa 200M baka maka-dalawa pa tayo ...

Ang kailangan na lang talaga ipush natin bumili at gamitin ng AFP ito ... yung mga susunod automatic na like media mileage and advertisement kasi malamang talagang magagamit ito sa mga disaster recovery etc ... wala pa dyan ang "word of mouth advertisement"


Damn sino ba ang mga pulitiko dito, generals ? ... mga sir halos wala na kami maipintas or maisip na hindi pwede ito sa Philippine Navy .. puro positibo ... baka gusto nyo samantalahin. :bow:

Just to add up

http://www.bollingershipyards.com/ (press release Dec. 4, 2002)

I believe, these modifications can also be done by our local shipbuilders. :thumb:

I just found this. Looks like the real thing.



Top Speed : 33 Kts laden
Service Speed : 30 kts laden
Passenger Capacity : 674 passengers
Crew Capacity : 26 crew total
Additional Capacity : 148 cars
Price : US$ 12,500,000

Looks a little bit shorter for a probable heli-deck and hangar space.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...hip/hsv-mod.htm


http://www.ship-find.com/ps-el_bv_wavecat.htm

This one I like. Looks more sleeker



Passengers – 1000
Sea State - up to 3.5 meters
Car capacity 250 AEQ
Dead weight – 516 metric tons
Light ship weight – 1368 metric tons
Speed at full load – 35 knots

Looking on the schematics, a heli-pad is probable with possible hangar to accomodate more helicopters just like the HSV-X1.





But these cost USD20 million each.
http://www.ship-find.com/super_cat.htm

Both are out of our league. :sad2:

Now, going back to the standard RO-ROs



These are how we could convert those:





Instead of Hovercrafts maybe lets put those LCMs about 2 on each side similar to our old LSTs. Better if we could use these





Going at 30 knots. http://www.billmunsonboats.com/packman.html

Still, the rear ramps of those RO-ROs could be lowered and modified to unload AAVs.

There were orders for dedicated Car Carriers in Cebu. How about RO-ROs customized as an LPD? :specool:

nice posts, comrade saver. i wish someone from the PN who is currently browsing our posts here would consider such an idea given the fact that our local shipbuilders can actually build those RO-RO ships that can be possibly converted into LPDs and other naval vessels. :thumb:

One example of a commercial ship turned into a naval support ship.

http://foxxaero.homestead.com/n_incat_020516.html

I strongly believe, the FILIPINO CAN!.

^ two thumbs up for that, comrade saver! :thumb: :thumb:

Tsuneishi of Cebu is said to be building some dedicated car carriers. I don't know what their design is but looking at the typical designs of these type of ships gave me another conversion possibilty idea.

With it's almost flat top, just change the location of the superstructure


into something like this







The orginal cost about USD2 Billion. How about a conversion and any savings gained invest it in the add-ons weapons and defense systems?

comrade saver: may i suggest that you share your ideas with comrade City Hunter. we can try having these converted off-the-shelf commercial ship proposal for the Navy go along with the F-20 proposal. :armywink:

Comrade Israeli, the facilities for these ship ideas are here. We have options that the PN can take. First option, buy late models second hands ships that can be converted by our local shipyards (there are ships made in the '90s with speed from 15 - 20+ knots, costing from USD1.5 million to 20 Million). Since we are buying second hand retired dedicated naval ships of which by the way also requires upgrading and refurbishments too. And worse, cost so much that we can't buy them, the reason why we lose so many opportunities for those naval ships. Second option, let's order it new from these shipyards. Let the PN/PCG give its requirements and let those shipbuilders make a couple each giving all these shipbuilders the ability to know the technology and improve from it.

With this system it helps the economy, we improve in technology and maintenance will not be a problem for the PN.

:crawling: How about this one use by the british during the falklands war using commercial container ship into a heicopter/ VTOl aircraft carrier