Scorpion 2000 upgrade, wish...wish...wish :thumb:

I guess we can start by changing the tanks engine to diesel para mas tipid and then yung night vision fighting capability nya. A gatling gun can be put in lieu of cannons :armygrin:

I agree that shifting to turbo diesels would be the way to go for our Scorpions. But, if our government is keen on taking things further why not one of the hybrid engines that our local inventors have come up with. This is they hybrid gas and hydrogen fueled engine. Would be a great saver on cost as long as its made more practical.

As for its equipment, rather than a Gatling gun why not one of those small yet hi-velocity guns from Israel (sorry, my system went kaput again along with all my saved files). Or why don't we make it into a simpler yet better machine like the Wiesel. Modular yet capable and economical. Would make a great asset once other ideas like the modified Skycranes are picked for use.

hmmmmmmmm... just a question.

if ever the Army is interested, where can we get surplus Scorpion light tanks? :dunno:

Instead of looking for surplus why don't we apply for licensed manufacture of these Scorpions. That way we could maintain and field more of these. Then arm them with the Israeli HVMS to oppose battle tanks (would make short work of those North Korean T55s) with enhanced armor attached outside (to still make them easier to transport via air).

comrade City Hunter, correct me if i'm wrong but i guess Alvis (now part of BAE Systems) has ceased production of the Scorpion a long long time ago and we might not be able to even get a right to license produce the vehicle.

what's available to the Army if it wants to get additional Scorpions is to get surplus vehicles from other Scorpion-operating countries. among those countries include New Zealand (which had recently retired their Scorpions), Thailand (150 Scorpions), Nigeria (100+ Scorpions), UAE (76 Scorpions) and Britain (the Brits modified their old Scorpions into Sabre combat reconnaissance vehicles by attaching to them turrets from old Fox reconnaissance vehicles. armyrecognition.com says that the Royal Army has approximately 136 Scorpion Sabres). it will be ideal for the Philippine Army to have between 100 and 120 extensively upgraded Scorpion light tanks.

the PA Scorpions could be upgraded into Scorpion 2000 standard and be fitted with a Cockerill 90 mm turret, similar to this:

if we will not be able to get even surplus Scorpion light tanks, here are some of the "alternatives" that are worth considering:


-- SK 105 Kurassier (the Austrian Army still has lots of them in its inventory)


-- AMX 13 (we can ask Singapore for help in upgrading the AMX 13s. they have about 300 or so extensively upgraded AMX 13s in their Army)


-- PT-76 (in this picture is an upgraded PT-76, re-gunned with either the Cockerill Mk3M-A2 or the Mk8-A2 90mm gun, had its fire control system upgraded)

The PA should consider also the T72 tanks Russia and Eastern European countries have thousands of them. Upgrade the tank with FLIR, and new engine.

Scorpion is only a light tank very vulnerable to RPG, while the T72 is an MBT.

Iraq recently receive 75 T72 from Poland, and Hungary for free!

Even the poor, and peasant, rag tag Afghan army are heavily armed with MBT.

comrade El Commandante: the Army does not really need kick-@ss MBTs such as the T-72 or the Leopard 1. in fact, even extensively upgraded Scorpion light tanks would work wonders for the Army, most especially in providing much needed fire support.

but then, when we are to talk about MBTs, here are my favorites (and, perhaps, someday, some of them will enter service the PA):


-- T-72


--T-55


-- Leopard 1/2


-- Leclerc

...however, reality bites. what the Philippine Army can really have are...


-- upgraded Scorpion light tanks

if there is really one main battle tank that i really wish the PA would have, that is the Leopard 1.










:drunk:

Hmmm. With a Scorpion parang naka Jaguar ka na rin kasi Jaguar engine pala. Anyway, that Austrian light tank is nice. Instead of a larger gun why not pack it with the Israeli HVMS cannon. Mas ok yun. It was the answer of Chile to T-55s on their Shermans. Still, mas prefer ko pa rin yun Wiesel concept. Sure wish our government is supportive of such projects baka maenganyo pa ako to start one.

Wasn't there a diesel engine adaptation for the Scorpion? Mas ok yun over the original petrol engine.

As for MBTs, I don't think we'd need those. The only ones that I saw that could work on our terrain were those old pix of American M60s in Mindanao. With lighter tanks such as the Scorpion and the Wiesel, not only could we transport these with our existing assets but employ them better.

And if the AFP is seriously searching for a good tank platform the Hind is the proper route for now (faster than any land tank and with the proper mods could be made into a serious threat). Not only is it capable of traversing our kind of terrain it could also hold and capture an area like any serious tank. Maybe, we could mod it too to carry and unload Scorpions and Wiesels when the troops disembark. Mobile firepower with serious cargo capability too.

comrade City Hunter, Alvis actually produced a diesel-engined Scorpion.

those diesel-engined Scorpions fitted with the Cockerill 90 mm turret are the Scorpion 90s, which made their way into the armies of Malaysia, Venezuela and Indonesia.


-- Scorpion 90 light tank

with that diesel engine modification, perhaps the Philippine Army can have its own fleet of Scorpions upgraded and modified into the same configuration as the Scorpion 90. however, like what i said earlier, should the PA wanted to increase the number of Scorpions in its inventory, it has no other choice but to look for surplus vehicles in countries that also operate Scorpions such as New Zealand, Nigeria, Thailand, UAE and Britain.

speaking of the SK 105 Kurassier light tanks, here is a very interesting note about the vehicle from Jane's Land Forces:

should the Army fails to find surplus Scorpions, it can turn to Austria, which, according to armyrecognition.com, still has 250 or so SK 105 light tanks in its inventory. the PA could buy between 80 and 100 SK 105s and have them upgraded into modern standards as mentioned in the article above. :fire:

Why replace the scorpion? Its a nice platform. MAganda dyan yung makina gawing diesel at syempre 90mm Gun + Anti tank Missiles would be a good. Mas madali pa itago sa gubat kesa MBT

^ we are not advocating the replacement of the Scorpion. in fact, we all wanted the PA to get surplus Scorpions and have them, along with the current PA units, modernized into the specifications that we have mentioned in our previous posts.

the posts about the SK 105s are just mere alternative solutions should the PA fails to get surplus Scorpions.

Argentina license builds its own SK-105 which it designates the "Patagon".

Its a good future local-assembly project for the AFP.

Patagon:

how about Repaircraft's S2000 PEACEKEEPER upgrade?

Don't get caught speeding!

A CVR(T) Scorpion Tank, Upgraded to the latest Repaircraft PLC S 2000 PEACEKEEPER specifications, has just obtained the official international speed record for the World’s Fastest Tank.

Timed by the UK Police and MMST and witnessed by the Guinness Book of Records a standard production S 2000 PEACEKEEPER took the world record at an average speed of 82.23 kph / 51.10 mph.

The S 2000 PEACEKEEPER is the most modern version of the highly successful British CVR(T) vehicle, as used by 23 armies around the world. The principal differences are that the S 2000 PEACEKEEPER has a Repaircraft/Steyr Model 2133 Diesel 3.2 litre Turbocharged and Electronically Managed Engine, K10,000 Replaceable Rubber Pad Track, S 2000 Intelligent Electrical System, Explosion Suppressant Fuel Tank, DNGS Image Intensifier Day/Night Vision Gun Sights and Appliqué Armour fitted as standard.

The vehicle’s outstanding performance is guaranteed by the Repaircraft/Steyr 2133 diesel engine. This engine revs to 5,000 RPM, produces 200 BHP and up to 480 Nm Torque in standard specification. Weighing a featherweight 250 kg, the engine has no cylinder head and generates approx 20 kilowatts less heat than comparable engines. Quite simply this means that the fuel is turned into power rather than radiator waste heat, further engine performance and reliability in hot countries is dramatically improved by not having a separate cylinder head – on British Tanks traditionally the weakest link !

Variants of this engine are now used in various military vehicles and are for example now standard equipment in the Alvis Hägglunds BV 206S military tracked all terrain carrier.

Most remarkably the actual engine fitted to the record breaking S 2000 PEACEKEEPER vehicle had already logged over 11,200 miles (18,024 km) on the day of the world record. This may not sound much but in a Tank it is quite remarkable – probably the equivalent of 500,000 miles (804,650 km) in a car !

Also most notable is the vehicle’s revolutionary K10,000 Track. Traditionally a set of CVR(T) Scorpion Track has cost about UK Pounds £12,000.00 (depending on quantity ordered) and when the moulded-in rubber pads have worn down the track is thrown away. If used on tarmac roads the rubber pads can wear out in as little as 500 miles (804 km) at a cost of UK Pounds £24.00 per mile (1.60 km) to operate !

The revolutionary K10,000 Track has solved this problem very simply – fit replaceable rubber pads !

Not only do replaceable rubber pads give the track a 10,000 km life, the Track can save over UK Pounds £35,000.00 per vehicle, per 10,000 km and is more environmentally friendly.

Tank design philosophy has traditionally been Mobility, Firepower and Protection. However very few tank designers or armies can ever agree about which factor is the most important !

The S 2000 PEACEKEEPER addresses Firepower with the latest Image Intensifier or optional Thermal Sights and Laser Rangefinders for optimum Firepower accuracy.

Concerning protection the original CVR(T) Scorpion’s armour can be penetrated surprisingly easily by the latest 14.5 mm Russian sniper rifle ammunition. The S 2000 PEACEKEEPER has Appliqué Armour, a special ceramic material that causes high velocity bullets to literally shatter on impact. The design principal is that this additional Appliqué “hard skin” reduces the high velocity bullets “sting” so that the original ballistic aluminium armour can defeat the remaining impact of the bullet and so protect the crew.

Special custom alloy perforated steel ballistic skirts are fitted to the sides of the vehicle to protect the upper wheels and track – the enemies favourite target. These skirts are specially perforated to deflect high velocity bullets and therefore help to protect the original ballistic aluminium armour. They are also designed to cause Rocket Propelled Grenades to detonate away from the vehicle substantially improving the crews chances of survival. Being perforated they are surprisingly light and easy to remove and re-fit when servicing the vehicle.

In addition to Mobility, Firepower and Protection, Repaircraft PLC have now added another design philosophy – Safety.

The traditional CVR(T) Scorpion has an unfortunate reputation for being a “fire death trap” in combat situations. Unbelievably the fuel is stored within the crew compartment in a rubber bladder complete with a Perspex fuel level viewing window !

Diesel fuel, sadly as recent railway disasters have shown with vast numbers of deaths, will burn vigorously when ignited. Repaircraft PLC have for the first time in this class of Tank addressed this fundamental problem by developing an Explosion Suppressant Fuel Cell.

Made from ballistic fibre (similar to bullet proof vests) the cell is filled with Reticulated Safoam IV which forms a highly effective three dimensional fire screen.

Amazingly an S 2000 Explosion Suppressant Fuel Cell Upgrade kit is about the same price as the traditional rubber bladder and can be easily retrofitted with standard workshop tools.

http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/Press.htm, http://www.steyr-motors.com/applications/a54.htm

personally, I'd be interested in seeing whether the PA's Scorpions as well as other AIFVs can be converted into 120mm mortar carriers like these:



Light Mortar 120 mm Wiesel 2

http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/product.php?lang=3&fid=1490, http://www.armada.ch/00-2/005.htm



ST Kinetics SRAMS on Bronco ATTC

http://www.one35th.com/attc/attc_gallery16.htm

^ the Scorpion 2000 upgrade is really the way to go. i agree with some of our comrades here in converting the engine of the Scorpions from being fueled with gasoline to diesel and have each of them equipped with a Cockerill 90 mm turret.

other possible equipment that we can give to the upgraded Scorpions include NBC protection system, image intensification or thermal night vision equipment, navigation system, air-conditioning system and floatation screen. :thumb:

Question. Why is the 90mm Cockerill the preferred choice to mount on the Scorpion (besides it being offered as with in an upgrade package)? Why not the Israeli HVMS like those fitted on the old Chilean Shermans? More ammo to carry yet more lethal than the 90s. Or mod it with the 30mm Oerlikon KCA cannons from the old Viggens kung AA or infantry and anti-light armor duties.

The 90mm is a standard caliber round among countries allied with the West. The Israeli high-velocity 60mm is more exotic. The PA and PMC (with their LAV-90) would have a common type round too.

About the HV 60mm being "more lethal"...Hmm, maybe against medium to heavy armor but the Cockerill low-pressure 90mm is as effective against light to medium armor.

Since there's no imminent armored invasion, the 90mm's greater explosive effect would also make it much more useful against personnel and bunkers. All we need at present is just the Cockerill 90's bunker-busting HE and anti-personnel canister rounds.

About upgrading the Scorpion, I wonder if the Israeli developers of the anti-RPG add-on "insensitive reactive" armor (L-VAS for the M113, and also on the Wildcat truck noted in another thread at PMC section) could adapt the tiles around the Scorpion. I'd imagine that it would look something like a Bradley with ERA, downscaled version of course. Not sure, though, if the chassis can carry the weight of that up-armor kit although some loss of speed wouldn't be that bad if it's a "jungle tank."

Scorpion upgrades if they want to keep it alive:
1) Cockerill Mk3 low-recoil 90mm
2) anti-RPG add-on armor (lightweight L-VAS-type)
3) anti-mine kit (like anti-TMRP6 kit noted in another thread)
4) diesel engine

AMEN, Buhay na tayo dyan pag nagawa lahat yan sa SCORPION. BTW siguro pwede pa naman kabitan ng tig isang Aniti tank missile yan turret nyan

well ur tanks need over all replacement kasi mas ok kung bago ang gamit mo tiba? :patrioticpinoy: :snipemo:

OT na ito, I cannot recall at present but on one site there lists that our AFP has M113s armed with Vulcans. It was a long list of M113s that we have armed with various weapons. I wonder how come we never see those even in parades or in special circumstances like kudetas. Are they fiction or well-kept secrets like the rumored Kfirs.

Thanks for the answer, Sir tirad. But isn't there a more effective yet lesser calibre weapon to perform such roles? Maybe some of those explosive 30mms. Anyway, does our armored vehicles sporting cannons like the Scorpions keep their ammo dry or wet? Or does this apply only to old technologies.

But if it was me, maybe I'd like to toy with some of those Sheridan cannons. would probably make one hell of a bang on fortified positions of rebels despite their slow ROFs.

Another question. How come our AFP doesn't mount a modern version of the Calliope on our tanks? Wouldn't it be an effective additional firepower without modding much else? Let's say, arm our Scorpions with defective turrets with a rocket pod or a pair borrowed from the Air Force. These would create great havoc on those rebel fortifications. As for anti-tanks, shouldn't we get more of those fire-and-forget missiles that the Navy are using? Well, just for training purposes for now and commonality of equipment since the rebels don't have serious armor anyway at present.

If it was me, why not mod a pack of captured RPGs to be triggered from the inside the Scorpion when flushing out those rebels or criminals.

well to answer ur question wala plans ang A.F.P to do that they like to buy the same scorpion model and upgarde them with new systems thats what my intel says? at the moment :snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo: :patrioticpinoy:

superman try to make sense in your posts or else you will not last long here, advice lang po

The 20-30mm autocannons are a different class of weapons than 90mm-105mm cannons. Each type has its own ideal application. If the idea is to improve the Scorpion as an assault gun platform, 90mm is clearly the better choice, imho.

The PA AIFVs would still have their 25mm (which also makes me doubt if they will adopt an incrementally different round in 30mm, unless they shift to 30mm-types altogether).

My thinking on this is that in COIN, instead of fiddling with autocannons and new ammo, it would be better to have as many readily available (preferably RPG- and mine-resistant) vehicles even with just .50cal and 40mm AGL (which are both capable anti-infantry weapons), plus a core of "big" guns like the 90mm you can call on when the situation warrants it.

mataas ata ang turret profile ng Patagon, madaling ma target lock :rifle:

why dont we try to make the scorpion and posibly the V150 and simba into a 106mm or 90mm self propelled recoiless rifle . RR are more cheaper and we have i think plenty of this like the ontos
like what the japanese did also.
or like this

yes these vehicles are cheaper to operate, but the crew has no armor protection unlike tanks, they are exposed to small fire (bullets) and/or shrapnel from exploded ordnance. for me, its not good enough. as of now, it is better to upgrade our scorpion light tanks by arming them with a 90mm cockerill gun, new FCS, FLIR/night vision capability, replace gasoline engines with efficient diesel engines, install additional firepower like MGs, grenade/smoke launchers...

... there are some reports that there is an "anti-armor" version for the 90mm caliber shell, will still look for new data on this...

Here's one other upgrade we can throw in to thhe scorpion.

What if we install anti-tank guided missiles on it to supplement the main gun?

If a Cockerill is effective for light-medium armor and fire support, an ATGM like the TOW or Milan can give the tank the ability to take down MBTs.

if we want to make usefulof our scorpions, then lets upgrade them as fire support vehicle and not as MBT killer. our local enemies dont have Tanks or APCs. its just a waste to arm them with ATGM and other anti-tank weapons.

yeah its not the best but with little budget maybe that will do since we cannot afford to buy TOW or MILA missiles and. there is a 90mm APFSDS round ( Armored Piercing fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot ) or we can use a HVMS round like what the Israeli did with there M113 APC
www.israeli-weapons.com

Better yet, can't we mod them to be more fuel-efficient, new rubberpad-equipped tracks and create a local turret using the 20mm guns from our retired fighters? At least magkaroon ng standardization. Kung ma-equip yun gunships natin, naval vessels, tanks at APC/IFV ng 20mm e di hindi na masyado problema ang supply. Tapos imbes na missle or cannon which are a bit limited in use and expensive mortars na lang. Bale, yun Scorpions armed with 20mm tapos yun M113s natin sporting turreted automatic mortars. Kung kinakailangan yun rocket pods ng gunships natin isalpak rin for instant firepower pa. Yun cannon ng Scorpions iwan muna sa base where they could be of better service in defending against attacks.

couldnt agree more

arm a few scorpions with multibarreled cannons, reequip some for recon with ample sensors and commo equipment :thumb:

i think this concept is now being done by UK armed forces: replacing all of their scorpions 90mm gun and turret with a 20mm/25mm rapid-fire gun and improved turret design and it is now being used for fire support for the infantry and is widely used by their airborne forces.

good suggestion...

You must be talking about the Scimitar variant of the Scorpion where the 76MM is replaced with a 30 MM ARDEN cannon. It would be used for recon duties with a secondary fire support role.

The idea of mine to upgrade some Scorpions with ATGMs and a Cockerill would be in anticipation of External Defense requirements in the future as an alternative to buying MBTs

ooops, i mean the 76mm gun, not the 90mm gun, sorry.. thanks comrade tora^2

...but there is another variant and its not the scimatar, although it is very similar to the scimitar but using a 20mm gun, not the 30mm gun, and yes it is used mainly armored recon by airborne troops, with a secondary role as infantry fire support. they are phasing out the scorpion light tank within the british army.

... and yes i agree to you that our scorpion tanks be upgraded rather than buy MBTs (although we really don't need MBTs because even our external enemies will not field-in their MBTs, they might, however, use their amphibious light tanks, which can be defeated even by a 106mm RR or a guided missile (rocket) with the LAHAT system). as what i said in this forum:

as of now, it is better to upgrade our scorpion light tanks by arming them with a 90mm cockerill gun, new FCS, FLIR/night vision capability, replace gasoline engines with efficient diesel engines, install additional firepower like MGs, grenade/smoke launchers...

... there are some reports that there is an "anti-armor" version for the 90mm caliber shell, will still look for new data on this...

and as comdare dstryer23 just said on the anti-armor 90mm shell:

there is a 90mm APFSDS round ( Armored Piercing fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot ) or we can use a HVMS round like what the Israeli did with there M113 APC

... and the scorpion tank is air-droppable and/or can be carried by a C-130 (actually 2 scorpions can fit inside the C-130). with 2 C-130s carrying scorpions you have a platoon's worth of tanks (4x scorpions).

... comments

I think upgrading the guns of the scorpion to a 105mm gun or higher is a no no. The 90mm gun is the max when it comes to high caliber guns. First of all the Scorpion tank is a light tank and the location of the turret is at the rear. Having let's say a 105mm gun mounted, the recoil of the gun would be too much for the Scorpion to handle as it may flip over. A large gun would mean a bigger turret size and that would add weight to the tank. Adding more weight would mean the engine may have a hard time propelling the tank to a desired speed. With this, you will wear out the engine faster and would require frequent maintenance. An expensive alternative is to get a more powerful engine (hope it fits) to bring it to a desired speed. Look what happened to the M551 Sheridan. It is a light tank but armed with a 152mm gun! Based on its combat record and performance, yes it can be dropped by a C130 but when the firing issue starts that's when the problems begin. The recoil of the gun pushes back the tank and thus missing its target. The 90mm gun is sufficient enough for now. Just my thought.

:aberet: