personally, i really prefer investing in new airframes (like F-16C Block 50 or Gripen), but if funds are really that tight, the PAF can do a lot worse than this:

another option from the F-16 family would be the European F-16 MLU airframes.

hasn't the PAF tried this route before? what happened?

Impossible. :drunk:

Kahit nga F-5A na lang or F-5E hindi nga mangyari. "yan pa.

Possible: i agree with Pendejo on this one. it is virtually impossible for the Philippine Air Force to operate even surplus F-16A/B ADF fighters from the States.

the PAF only has three choices- F-5E/Fs, Mirage F1s and Kfir 2000s- but given the current state of affairs in this country of ours, it's another far-fetched dream for most of us. :armycry:

nah, acquiring Eurofighter Typhoons and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets - THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

now, second-hand F-16As? - big difference between the 'impossible' and the 'difficult', dude: the impossible ain't happening - period, the difficult ain't happening if all a person does is sit on his ass and whine "Impossible."

if you aren't willing to help, get out of the way of those who are. :fire:

on the other hand: i can understand F-5s being cheaper to operate than F-16s, but Kfir 2000s and Mirage F1s? (Spanish? South African?)

even so, the F-16 is part of a LIVE international program, it will remain in USAF service for at least two decades more - how can any other second-hand airframe be more cost-effective than that?

Possible: i too wanted the PAF to get F-16A/B ADFs and have them upgraded into MLU standards but look at how things are going on within the AFP, the Philippine government and the Philippines itself. ALL WE DID WAS TO BEG THE AMERICANS EVEN IF WE HAVE THE MONEY (YES, WE HAVE THE MONEY BUT GLORIA, HER ALLIES, HER POLITICAL OPPONENTS [MOST OF THEM, FPJ AND ERAP SUPPORTERS], CORRUPT OFFICERS OF THE AFP AND CORRUPT CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY STOLE THE MONEY AND USED THE FUNDS FOR THEIR OWN SELFISH INTERESTS). the Americans already insisted that we BUY the arms from the and NOT merely beg (because they know where the money intended for AFP Modernization really went).

i am one of those who are more than willing to help but if the Philippines does not want to help itself, then, there's nothing we can do about that. :dunno:

I don't know about you. I've done my part, been there, done that, did everything even got the t-shirt. Even tried bringing down this government several times. They even dragged me to jail after '89. You have the nerve to tell me to get out of the way for those who are willing to help? Like you? What have you done?

Think twice if you cannot place your money where your mouth is.

Had to ask and this is an earnest question...How'd you figure installing a military junta would make our country a better place?

Was just trying to imagine what it would be like to live in military-run countries like in Latin America in the 70s-80s, or some parts of Africa to this day, or closer in Asean, junta-run Burma, and was thinking it wouldn't really be that nice to say the least.

^^ :agree:

and you seem to be proud of your participation in the past coups and as if we really owe you something for trying to topple a duly constituted government...wake up Pendejo, coup plotters are among the most disliked by the majority common tao.

If I am not mistaken the US once offered to sell 26 F16A to the PAF, what happened with the negotiation?

Even if we have the money to buy those surplus F16 how much it would cost us to buy and upgrade it to the MLU standard. and can we maintain it?

Guys, you have said all the answers to your why can't we buy?

1. The Gov't - past and present set-up. Everybody is hesitant. After being under military rule for a long time, any set-up once it's siding with the military, oppositions takes place (especially the left). Even under FVR, he can't totally give what our military wants because of the questions of his past. Past coups, have you seen the guys what they're carrying. From Honasan to the Oakwood? New equipments. Tora-tora nga, pinag-tiyagaan, new jets pa? So how can a civilian gov't even if we have the money give all it's trust after being traumatize with such incidents?

2. The U.S. of A - you said it, that they said it. "BUY YOUR EQUIPMENTS"! Our equipments! OK we buy at what price? Not the dollars my friend, what's it is for us? Remember guys, we kicked them out! And nobody ever does that to the U.S. of A. Not even the U.N., remember, Israeli? See the other threads about the CF5's they are the ones who blocked it. Human rights record daw natin. Why not buy from other sources. Anything U.S. made you need their approval.

So guys, I think our people especially those opposing about our country's modernization program will only think about it when it's already too late, when our ass are kicked. That I believe is the only time we will be united, kasi mahilig tayo pag inaapi, kuyog attitude. All reactions no preventions. :bs:

We realized that. I was young, an activist and a rebel. I don't advocate that now. It would never work. We realized it would only work if the people supported it. Like EDSA II.

I hope you guys do not get the impression that I am an advocate for a military junta. I never believed in that.

My advocacy is threefold plus two.

1. Charter Change
2. Federal Form of Government
3. Electoral Reform

plus two...

4. Deep selection of leadership and restructuring of the armed forces.
5. Tax the Church

You don't owe me anything. You've read meaning into my position in the past. Tama na 'yon Dorodoro don't take it personally. You once said I had an axe to grind against the armed forces without any basis. If you have read my numerous posts in the past you would know where I stand on the political spectrum as well as armed forces reform.

Wake up my friend, EDSA II was a coup.

Well there's no such thing as impossible as long our intelligent corrupt lawmakers will think all the possiblity to acquire Jet fighters needed by our country external defense.

Too much power hungry and corrupt politician in our goverment that makes our External defense the weakest in Asean country.

They(politician) never realize the importance and value of external defense. In my own opinion, our country needs a credible EXTERNAL DEFENSE in order to protect the interest and future of the Filipino people. I really dont believe that we have no money to buy such Jet fighter aircarft like F-16 or F-18 etc. etc..

Maybe it never occur in the minds and hearts of Philippine Politics that a GOOD EXTERNAL DEFENSE is a Must. Peace to all.

i see. so politics did us in as usual.

looking at current events, i can also conclude that "WE HAVE THE MONEY", it's only a matter of freeing it up for the right uses. if we look at what's eating-up most of our national budget, it's easy to see a possible solution

surrendering 4 out of every 5 pesos of our national budget to foreign creditors is totally unacceptable. rather than indulge duplicitous military adventurists, better to support the efforts of honest public servants working to shoot down :asniper: this odious burden on Filipinos.

F-16A/B Block15 ADF- thais bought these for around $9-$10million. Thais bought them with abouth 4,000 flight hours left, or 20 years service if flown at 200hours per year for training and proficiency flights (NATO minimum). I have a question for these, can they carry bombs, munition, ordannace as capable as Block15OCU, which is its cousin?

Mirage F-1- French are selling refurbished C standard or can upgrade to multirole E-standard, flight hours...? South Africa selling their AZ fighter/bomber fleet, can fire stand-off munitions, and have 20 years structural life left. Cost of a Mirage F-1C as said by Opus is around $9million.

A-4 Fightinghawk- Discrepancy as to how much the Argentines paid for their 36 planes. Fightinghawks received new radar, upgraded cockpit/avionics and zero timed engines, spare engines. Some sites list the price as $70million, other $208million, FAS.org has it as $500million. if at $208million its about $5.8million per plane? $500million, $13.9 million?

Canadian CF-5A/D-3 types offered for sale 9 nonupgraded ($1million), 7 refurbished and some modifications ($2.5million), 20 refurbsihed, upgraded($3 and $4million. Refurbished ones expected to last over 6,000 flight hours, many airframes have about 4,000 flight hours. 10-15 years life left before retirement or another refurbishement. The 20 refurbished and upgraded versions were upgraded with avionics and cockpit similar to CF-18(F/A-18) and were used as LIFT for them.

Too late now but Colonel Moamar Qadaffi of Libya in 2004 sold his entire fleet of some 50 Mirage5D fighter-bombers, as well as his entire spares including 150 spare engines to the PAF, Pakistan Air Force that is. Many air force enthusiasts as well as the Pakistanis were surprised because of the great condition they were in, good "as new" was what pakistanis described them. Some of the aircraft actually had only 1,000 flight hours. Many were surprised since these planes were 30 years old, not to mention spares supply was cut off 10 years ago. The good conditon was attributed to the Colonel's logic of not waiting months on end for supplies and attrition replacements in a war. He bought large spares pool and bought more aircraft than needed, stored the unneeded planes and used them as attrition replacements if shot down or if in desperation, cannibalized. There is no question now that the Colonel's was right.

There's a very fine line between "difficult" and "impossible".

Getting the F-16 ADF is so difficult it might as well be impossible.

after buying the entire fleet of Libyan Mirage 5s (really to late for the Philippine Air Force), the Pakistanis are also contemplating on whether they will buy Libya's fleet of Mirage F1s... :bow: :drunk:


Pakistan to buy another 28 Mirages from Libya
Tuesday July 13, 2004 (0720 PST)
http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=70619


ISLAMABAD, July 14 (Online): Close on the heels of purchase of 50 Mirage combat jets from Libya, Pakistan is mulling another deal to buy 28 aircraft from the African country, officials said.

"The two sides have had many rounds of talks" on purchasing the additional aircraft, which are in a semi-operational condition, a senior defence official told IANS.

The aircraft purchased in the previous deal, as also a large quantity of spares, have begun arriving in Pakistan. Some of these aircraft will be inducted into service and some will be cannibalised for spares, the official said.

The Libyan Air Force initially wanted to retain these Mirages but the F-1 level upgrade proposed by the French was proving too costly. Besides, with sanctions against Tripoli lifted, the Libyan government would rather opt for modern fighters, the official said.

"For Pakistan, it may not be that expensive to carry out these upgrades as we have the facilities to do this in a cost effective manner," said the official.

The PAF currently operates 180 Mirage-3 and Mirage-5 jets.

Pakistan first purchased the sleek aircraft in 1968. Its current fleet is a mixture of used Mirages purchased from Australia and freshly produced models from France.

The Mirage-3 is a high-speed, all-weather, delta wing, long-range fighter-bomber and is deployed by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as a multi-role fighter.

The Mirage-5 is a ground-attack and reconnaissance aircraft. It is also used by the PAF in an anti-ship role armed with Exocet missiles.

The Mirage is considered one of the world's most elegant aircraft. It has a wingspan of 8.22 metres and reaches speeds up to 2,350 km per hour.

the website noted the Libyan Air Force possessing "well maintained reserves"...


http://www.iss.co.za/AF/profiles/Libya/libya1.html


AIR FORCE

Fixed Wing

90 X Mig 21 Interceptor
120 X MIG-23MS
60 X Mig-25 PD
16 X Mirage F1-ED
15 X Su-24 Fighter Bomber
100 X Su-22M3
20 X Tu - 22A Recce/bomber
85 X Mirage Close Air Support ->>> aren't these the ones sold to Pakistan?
15 X Mirage 5DD Comat trainer ->>> aren't these the ones sold to Pakistan?
16 X Mirage F1 Close Air Support ->>> Mirage F1As (similar to South African Mirage F1AZs)?
40 X Mig 23 BN
24 X Jastreb
7 X Mig-25UB Combat Trainer
10 X Mirage 5DR recce ->>> aren't these the ones sold to Pakistan?
15 X Mig-23 UB Combat Trainer
4 X Mig-25U
6 X Mirage F1-BD
15 X Su-22U/UM3
12 X An-26 Transport
8 X C-130
2 X L-100 - 20
3 X L-100-30 Tranmsport
24 X Il-76m Strategic Transport
16 X L-140 Transport
181 X L-39ZO Advanced Trainer
120 X Galeb Basic Trainer
250 X SF-260 WL trainer

Rotary Wing

35 X Mi-24D Attack
10 X Mi-35V Attack
6 X CH-47C Transport
15 X Mi-8C Light Support
8 X SA 321 Utility
2 X AB-212 Utility
4 X AB206A Liaison

Air Defence

50 X Antey 9K33
216 X Antey SA-5
106 X S-125 SA-3
108 X V-75 SA-2
27 X Crotale
144 X 23mm ZU-23 Twin

Yes, the Mirage5 fleet and its spares are gone. They had a long and interesting service. Deliveries started in early 72, first units actually transfered to Egyptian Air Force, atleast 40 examples went to Egypt, and used in Yom Kippur in 1973. Returned after the war, 10-15 lost in war in air to air and ground fire. Used AGAINST Egypt in 1977 border war, 3-10 lost. Sent to France for midlife upgrades in 80s, when Libya invaded Chad and fought the French-Chad forces there, some Mirage5s were impounded, returned in 1989. During "dog-fights" or engagements with USN pilots in F-14s and F/A-18s, USN pilots were baffled when Libyans in Mirage5s were better pilots than Libyans in Migs, they were harder to get behind and harder to intercept, no one knows why. The Colonel is looking at new fighters, Su-30, Su-34, Typhoon?, Rafale? as well as training aircraft and armored vehicles, it will be interesting to see what will be bought.

Libyan MirageF-1AD and South African MirageF-1AZ were similar. Both were built as Fighter-bombers, did not have long range radar of C versions instead with laser range finder radar and fire controls. But they have longer range, carry more ordonance, and cheaper price. South African AZs however were hastily delivered and had problems with avionics so South Africa developed its own systems, as such south african examples had more upgrades and modifications done on them locally. What was done and how accurate AZs are is classified by the South African government. French sells C interceptor models as well as upgraded E multirole versions able to target and fire Exocets. Greek retired their F-1CG fleet already after nearly30 years and 5,000-6,000 flight hours on an average plane, interesting to note, Greek MirageF-1CG more than held their own against Turkish AF F-16Cs.

Roll-out of first Chilean F-16

riday, April 15, 2005 - Yesterday, April 14th, the first Chilean F-16 was rolled off the production line at the Lockheed Martin facility in Fort Worth marking the start of production deliveries to the Latin American country.

The deal for 10 F-16 (6 C-models and 4 D-models) was signed in 2002 in a $714 million contract that also included two KC-135 tanker aircraft. Chile is to be the second Latin American country to receive the venerable fighter after Venezuela, which received 18 A-models and 6 B-models in 1982.

The Chilean F-16s will be equipped with the Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)XM radar, General Electric F-110-GE-129 engine and conformal fuel tanks. Included in the deal are also four Northrop Grumman LITENING II targeting pods and six each of ALQ-131 and ALQ-184 electronic warfare pods. The latest deal states that the aircraft will also be equipped with the Israeli Python 4 missiles and associated Helmet Mounted Cueing System.

Deliveries of the airframes to the Chilean Air Force is projected to start in the second half of 2005 and run till the end of 2006.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1344.html

if that's the case, then the Libyans might have been sending the message that they might soon put up their L-39ZO Albatros advanced trainers (which could also double as ground attack aircraft [calling the attention of the PAF whiz kids]), Soko G-2 Galeb basic trainers (which could also be used in ground attack missions) and SF-260WL primary trainers on sale. if ever these capable aircraft will be put on sale by the Libyans, i hope the Philippine Air Force might consider some of them, in particular the L-39ZOs and SF-260WLs. :drunk:

the 21 South African Mirage F1AZs are still up for sale to potential buyers according to ARMSCOR (website: www.armscor.co.za). correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i know, the Mirage F1AZs were fitted with the Russian Klimov RD-33 engine, the same engine that equips the MiG-29 Fulcrum. did that change in the engine had an affect on the performance of the Mirage F1AZs? which is more practical for the Philippine Air Force, purchase 21 Mirage F1AZs from South Africa or purchase extensively upgraded Mirage F1CTs (which are equipped with the Cyrano IV-M radar and armed with one 30 mm DEFA cannon; Super 530D, Magic II, ARMAT, AM-39 Exocet and AS-30L missiles; and laser-guided bombs) from France? :rifle:

adroth: as you can see from my nick, "impossible" is not a word i am enamoured of. knowing the enemy is always the first step towards solving any problem, and clearly the single most debilitating problem hampering the Philippine economy is the debt crisis. politics is irrelevant, anyone we place in Malacanang will have to confront this issue, so better that we all face it down now so that the next generation will not be reduced to raising their hands and whining "Impossible" as some people are wont to do now.

datu and israeli: second-hand F-5As and Mirages are attractively-priced but there's no escaping the fact that either would only be a stop-gap solution. the Canadians and the French may put a nice spin on the merits of their respective products but both are dead end purchases no matter how anyone looks at it.

the plain vanilla Mirage F1's Atar turbojet is straight out of the 1950s, re-engining with the gas-guzzling RD-33/SMR-95 is hardly a cost-effective solution in the long run. and Canadian F-5As...the PAF can hardly keep its own F-5As in the air, what makes anybody think simply buying more of the same will make the maintenance woes magically go away?

i can see two general attitudes towards addressing issues on this forum: short-term approach versus long-term solutions. short-term is always easier of course, but count me among those in for the long haul.

What's the point of sprucing up the perimeter fence while the house its protecting is on fire?

Its about priorities, and about being realistic. Some people here like to fantasize, some people like to be grounded and realistic. Count me amongst the grounded and realistc.

The first priority should be to secure internal stability so that the economy can improve. Once that is done, we can buy all the F-16s that you want -- if not better.

israeli:

possible:

Only one south african MirageF-1AZ was ever equipped with RD-33 engine, this was only used for testing and research, and demonstration, a fall back the South African Air Force had just in case the Gripen deal did not push through, but it did. MirageF-1AZ and CZ fleet as well as most o the MirageIII fleet was retired and stored. As an interim solution, some 19 MirageIIIs were upgraded into what is known as the CheetahC/D aircraft. Upgraded some say to Kfir2000/C.10 standard-externally it does look like kfir2000-, and to serve as air defense fighters until first batch of Gripens arrive in 2007 or 2008.

Well it might interest you that after the 1997 economic crisis, the PAF was actually looking for exactly what you said, a stop gap solution in which PAF will buy 18 aircraft, second hand, and can serve no more than 10-15 years before buying multirole fighters, during this time the PAF will learn and train on advanced equipment, and learn new fighter techniques, this was called the Interim modernization. The PAF cannot keep its F-5 in the air simply because they are old plain and simple, they never went through modest overhauls and thorough refurbishement, the Canadian versions however went through extreme overhauls and refurbishments and repairs, with so many repairs and changes they were basically new aircraft. The new aircraft performed wonderfully as trainers so well that Spain contracted Bristol Aerospace to perform overhauls and upgrades on Spain's fleet of F-5s, . agian this CASA/Bristol plane came out like new. And yes 13 Canadian CF-5s were requested for purchase by the PAF, but the US was worried at the time about Manila's human rights violations, and another purchase to buy Swiss F-5E/F was again blocked by US but thats different. Mirages or F-5s of A-4s, doesnt matter id rather the PAF use its money for supporting ISO operations, not fighters that just sit on tarmacs. But it wont hurt to talk about fighters and fighter purchases by others, unless that is not allowed here.

adroth: as you can see, suggestions have been put forward here and on other threads concerning the debt crisis, which is clearly the single biggest problem facing the country. i believe (as anyone realistic would) that addressing the economy - and, consequently, bringing about social justice - is the only true long-term guarantor of internal security.

in the meantime, it wont hurt to talk about fighters and fighter purchases by others, unless that is not allowed here. :aberet:

datu: continuing in the vein of discussing the comparative merits of possible remedies to the PAF fighter crisis, i still believe that obtaining second-hand F-16s is still the most effective solution in both cost and, more importantly, operational terms.

the well-known South African Cheetah upgrade is still at best a dead end measure, acquiring the latter will put the PAF in the position of relying on a basic airframe which has otherwise been withdrawn from service by every previous operator, meaning a rehash of basically the same problem facing the PAF and its F-5 fleet today.

speaking of F-5s, the same can be observed of the proposed Canadian F-5 purchase, with the added caveat that buying CF-5Ds does not resolve the PAF's primary mission of external defense: the 18 fully-upgraded CF-5Ds available (at a quoted US$4 million as of Feb 2004 per the supplied link) are, as you said, "wonderful" trainer aircraft, not fighter planes.

if the issue here were lead-in fighter trainers then i'd be all for those CF-5Ds, assuming the canucks can indeed deliver on spares as they claim; but if the presumption is that those same LIFTs can deliver in the same way an F-16 could in the air defense mission, i don't think that presumption would be justified.

neither is the presumption that anyone is disallowing anybody from talking about other fighter purchases: i am merely pointing-out comparative merits vis-a-vis, not saying that the alternatives don't possess any merit, period.

The F-16 definitely is a fine MRF and one of world's most sought plane. It's like a BMW compared to the imported surplus Japayukis.

Buying one for the PAF? Possible. How much does it cost? USD30M - 40M? Then go ahead buy ONE. So we did have one to defend the whole Philippines. How about training the pilots? How many pilots do we have? How many hours per pilot for the flight hours? Oh we forgot, we have to conduct patrols surrounding the 7,000 islands. So after a year we have to refurbish it. Then Buy another. now we have 2, 1 flyable the other being overhauled. Oh, an intrusion, a squadron of F-16s from country A, oh no, F-18s of country B, oh my, MIGs from country C. Bye-bye F-16.

Like the car, the Philippines is third world, as in class C citizen. So you like the best. Buy the BMW, it's possible. All you have to do is pay it monthly. By your whole paycheck. Forget about the rent, the debts and bills, the daily needs, medical and education of your children etc. I have this BMW to show off to my neighbors. Mamatay sila sa inggit!

Sila kaya ang mamatay o mga kapatid nating nagugutom dahil ang isang kapatid na gustong mapagbigyan, ang buong budget binili ng Ina ang hilig dahil iyon ang maganda para sa kanya?

Better wake up man! We simply can't afford those things at the moment. Like our fellow posters are telling, we have to solve first our internal problems. Once it's solve, we can have the luxury to buy those things like our neighbors. They could, because they have a stable economy and have the spare to spend for future threaths. Check on those wish list of our soldiers, vest, radios, Hueys (no Apaches or hi-end types so the more units to fly and can serve many) CAS planes, C130. no jets, no corvettes. Enough for them to die for country.

If our real soldiers knows what they wanted, isn't it better to address those request first than tackle a ghost enemy, FEAR of external threats. And having 6 - 12 of those F-16s won't give you an assurance that you can defeat an aggressor determine to destroy you. Because to operate those F16s you also need other things to support it (radars, missiles etc) which you have no more money to buy with.

Getting those wonderful equipments would be an advantage to any country. But for us, get real. Let's clean our house first and stop whining for those toys! It's either NO jets at all and concentrate on ISO or buy jets our country can simply AFFORD that can do the job!

possible:

There you go, so we can talk about fighters other nations have and what other nations have bought. This site isnt run by fascists afterall.

i agree with datu and saver111 on what their point regarding ISOs but have we seen any sincere intent from this sitting government of CRUSHING the insurgents once and for all? NO. it has been decades since this insurgency has raged in many parts of the country. the Filipino people already formed the opinion that the government and military establishment NEVER wanted the insurgency to end so that they will have something to justify their demands for a larger defense budget, which, sadly, much goes to the pockets of corrupt officials. if there's no insurgency, then our politicians will give the Defense Department and the AFP a meager budget (but the money will be used by the politicians to fatten up their Pork).

even if we have the money to buy and maintain big ticket items (multi-role fighters, guided-missile frigates, submarines, etc.), politics will always influence decisions in weapons purchases. corrupt government and military officials and citizens will go after KICKBACKS in such purchases. :grrr:

:agree:

Medyo out of topic, but how do we totally crush insurgency without bumping into human rights violations? How about corruption?

Looking at it it's like we lack the unity to move on. A united ideology like "BAYAN MUNA BAGO SARILI". See our neighbors, Singapore, Thailand, Korea.

We rebelled against the dictatorial rule of Marcos, then what? Seeing our country's history parang hindi natin kayang tumayo ng hindi hinahawakan ng kamay na bakal. We don't like to admit it pero totoo. Corruption? It's almost like it's already attached to our culture, our way of life. It's like an accepted practice to see lagayan, abuse of authority,malpractices, etc. , walang pumupuna, okay lang. Na kahit sino ang ilagay mo, gagawa at gagawa ng hindi tama ang mga tao, mapa-ordinaryo o gobyerno.

EDSA I was almost it, we are almost united. But, we blew it. Nauna ang paghihiganti. It was payback time and the cycle continues. EDSA II, III ... :dunno:

Let's try to work things out. It might be not on our time maybe for the future. As for now, let's expect for more worst and hope for the best.

saver111:

There was a nonviolent, idealistic idea to stop the Muslim rebellion in Mindanao before, it goes, (sorry if it is out of topic):

Ako'y isinilang sa isang bayan ng Cotabato
Kasing gulo ng tao, kasing gulo ng mundo
Dahil di magkasundo sa relihiyon at prinsipyo, nagkagulo.

Ang bayan ko sa Cotabato, kasing gulo ng isip ko
Di alam kung saan nanggaling, di alam kung saan patungo
Kapatid sa kapatid, laman sa laman
Sila-sila ang naglalaban, di ko alam ang dahilan ng gulo.

Bakit nagkaganon, ang sagot sa tanong ko
Bakit kayo nagkagulo, bakit kayo nag-away
Prinsipyo mo'y igagalang ko kung ako'y iyong nirespeto
Kung nagtulungan kayo, di sana magulo ang bayan ko.

Sa bayan kong sinilangan, sa timog Cotabato
Ako ay namulat sa napakalaking gulo
Dahil walang respeto sa prinsipyo ng kapwa tao
Kapwa Pilipino ay pinapahirapan mo, ang gulo.

Ako'y nananawagan, humihingi ng tulong n'yo
Kapayapaa'y bigyan ng daan, kapayapaan sa bayan ko
Bakit kailangan pang maglaban, magkapatid kayo sa dugo
Kailan kayo magkakasundo, kapayapaa'y kailan matatamo ng bayan ko?

Kung ako'y may maitutulong, tutulong nang buong puso
Gitara ko'y aking inaalay, kung magkagulo'y gamitin mo
Kung ang kalaba'y walang puso, puso na rin ang gamitin mo
Ituring mong isang kaibigan
Isipin mong siya'y may puso rin katulad mo.

Sa bayan kong sinilangan (bakit may gulo...)
Sa timog Cotabato (sa timog Cotabato)
Ako ay namulat (kailan matatapos...)
Sa napakalaking gulo (ang gulo)
Dahil walang respeto (kailan magkakasundo...)
Sa prinsipyo ng kapwa tao (ang tao)
Kapwa Pilipino (kapwa Pilipino...)
Ay kinakalaban mo (bakit kinalaban mo)
Ang gulo... :patrioticpinoy:

Song by Asin.

Those that know the song and found something wrong with lyric, i apologize as i am only listening and posting the lyric i hear and also i am ilokano born and raised. If you dont like the song im sorry. :thumb: :drunk: :patrioticpinoy:

corruption is always in the system. corrupt officials in government and in the AFP and private civilians used the insurgency to justify the need for a bigger defense budget, which, in turn, was pocketed by these officials and civilians. :grrr:

as for "human rights", that is already passe. whenever TERRORISTS- NPA, MNLF, MILF and Abu Sayyaf- was killed or incarcerated, "progressive groups" (most of them front of the same TERRORIST groups) cry that there was "a human rights violation" committed but when a lowly soldier was killed by these same TERRORISTS, they are mum as if it is just fine to kill a soldier but it is a crime to kill a TERRORIST. :nono: :demon:

back to the topic of F-16A/B ADF fighters, i disagree with the comment made by possible that the South African Cheetah (Mirage III) upgrade and other upgrade programs for old aircraft (F-5E/F Tiger II, A-4 Skyhawk, Mirage F1, Kfir, etc.) "are still at best a dead end measure". as much as most of us here want the PAF to acquire spanking new F-16C/D Block 52s or F-16A/B ADFs upgraded to MLU standard, fact remains that the Philippine Air Force is NOT PREPARED for such venture. upgraded F-5E/Fs, A-4s, Mirage F1s and Kfirs might just give the Philippine Air Force its need for potent fighter aircraft at a much less cost for both acquisition and maintenance although considerable amount of money must be spent for the upgrade program for the fighter aircraft.

for example, if the Philippine Air Force will be able to secure 48 F-5E/Fs (with US help, of course), those aircraft could be upgraded to the F-5S/T upgrade, which is similar to the Singaporean F-5 Tiger IIs. the F-5S/Ts, said to be the most modern upgraded F-5E/Fs in the world, are equipped with the Italian-made Fiar Grifo F/X multi-mode radar and can carry and fire Python IV short-range AAMs, AGM-65 Maverick ASMs and the powerful AIM-120 AMRAAM BVR AAMs. if the Philippine Air Force will have 48 upgraded F-5E/Fs (into F-5S/T standard) carrying powerful Python IV and AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, that will, at least, give China and other potential airborne aggressors something to think about prior to them messing around with PAF F-5E/Fs.

this is what wikipedia.org is saying about the Singaporean F-5S/Ts (upgraded F-5E/Fs) :armywink: :

"as for "human rights", that is already passe. whenever TERRORISTS- NPA, MNLF, MILF and Abu Sayyaf- was killed or incarcerated, "progressive groups" (most of them front of the same TERRORIST groups) cry that there was "a human rights violation" committed but when a lowly soldier was killed by these same TERRORISTS, they are mum as if it is just fine to kill a soldier but it is a crime to kill a TERRORIST. nono.gif Demon.gif"

But isn't it the reason why the Clinton Gov't did not approve the sale of the CF5's and the USD50M refurbishment of our existing fleet? Same with other weapons selling countries. They tend to check the background of buyer countries alleged "human rights" violations. :bs:

but the f*cking thing about Clinton is that he gave more leverage to the Commie front groups (Bayan Muna, etc.) and did not give the Philippine government a chance to air its side of the story. :nono:

yup. so no one needs to invoke "fascism" when someone points out legitimate objections to one's pet proposals, right? :aberet:

pendejo, appreciate the response and candor.

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saver, well said. (referring to your post on page 2 of this thread on the impracticality of acquiring these F-16As)

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possible, I share your concern over the debt crisis as I’m sure any Filipino worth his citizenship does too. However, I don’t know where you got your figure that “four of five pesos” goes to debt servicing. It’s inaccurate. I’m sure it’s big but sure too not that big. While we can unilaterally suspend debt payments, this is not without cost to the economy, credit standing, etc. For an economy with a huge public deficit, meaning we’re spending more than what money we actually have, meaning further that a good chunk of the budget is financed by further loans, this ultimately means becoming a pariah in the international finance community would be a very tricky situation for us, and we’d be have to be willing to gamble the entire economy with such a radical move. I think the most recent major country to unilaterally stop debt payments was Argentina – and they certainly had an excuse: their economy had collapsed. Hope we don’t reach that point, and experts have warned that we’re getting perilously close there if we don’t take care.

At any rate, my point is, it’s not that simple. While, yes, the government can score some victories here and there through more aggressive (i.e, less wimpy) dealings with individual creditors, we really don’t have a pot of gold hidden somewhere. That is, well, a mirage (of the non- multirole-fighter kind). We’re a poor, overpopulated country. Even if we reduce debt payments to reasonable levels, money saved will have to go first to social services and yup, we’ve got 20,000+ insurgents of all stripes walking about.

Attitude toward defense is divided between long-term vs. short-term? Hardly. I think it’s really about focus. And you seem to be looking the other way. If, hypothetically speaking, we had the money and a single second-hand F-16A costs $9-10-M, that gets you about 4 Huey IIs instead; a squadron of used 14 F-16As (say a usual minimum number of 14), gets you 50+ Huey IIs. Alternatively, just 7 F-16As will let us buy 50,000 Interceptor body armor kits for our soldiers who regularly get shot at. And so on.

I’d advise patience. The ’95 AFP modernization program stipulated two squadrons (24-28) of spanking new, then current-generation strike fighters. The impressive list of candidates included the F-16C, F/A-18C, Gripen, Mirage 2000, etc. 10 years ago, the economy was good, the country was going somewhere, the various insurgencies were at an ebb (5k na lang Neps, peace with MNLF, MIs were small splinter group, nonexistent ASG) and we had the money and the projected money flow for paying for those expensive war thingies. Then the cataclysmic ’97 Asian crisis happened and then the global economic slowdown. So here we are. Again.

Internal security first. Flying Hueys and C130s, better ground support weapons and equipment, communications, hopefully general-issue body armor and the like.

Patience. No need to gnash our teeth for not having second-hand F-16As here and now. In 2017, we’ll be buying F-35s. :aberet:

speaking of which: yes, we are all aware that the Israeli aircraft industry can do wonders for otherwise obsolete airframes; nevertheless, the fact remains that the F-5 or Mirage F1 is a type that has been retired or will soon be retired by all previous operators, so a few years after an F5/Mirage purchase the PAF will find itself looking for a replacement, meaning it will find itself in the exact same situation that it is trying to pull itself out of now - that is what is meant by a "dead end", and that is what is meant by short-term stop-gaps vis-a-vis long-term solutions.

on the other hand, the F-16 and its various versions is a viable solution, not only in its first few years but two possibly even more decades from now, for the simple reason that the USAF, Singaporean, Israeli, UAE, Chilean, Polish, Pakistani, Thai, Dutch, Italian, etc., etc. AFs think so.

SUSTAINABILITY. that should be the primary concern, imho.

I chose to home in on this issue is because of your assertion that the realists focus on more doable items because they are easy. As you said:

I am merely correction your presumption.

All manner of discussion is welcome.

Our choice to bring bring reality to the fore is not forbidden either.

South Africa has no two seat BZs.

Might as well buy more MD-520 attack helicopters and give those a better weapon system rather then wasting money to buy a feel good fighter.

possible:

Yes to "ones pet proposal", although i did not put up any proposal and have not said buy this and buy that. I am still waiting for your legitimate objection on why the PAF should not buy upgraded F-5s or A-4 or Mirage 5 or F-1? All i heard so far was they are bad and its only a stop gap measure, and going to be retired soon anyways.Like i said, the PAF was looking exactly what you just described, an interim fighter. Last i heard ADF buyers buy them from mothballed AMARC stocks, give them overhaul and refurbishement and bring them to combat status. The ADF airframe itself is a Block15 upgraded to block15OCU standards On average, the airframe of an ADF has about 4,000 flight hours left, about 20 years of life left, after that either an option for life extension program or to choose another fighter, both of which costs money. When Mirages also still has 20 years of life also, some of the CF-5s still have 15 years left and only needs only reactivation, after the 20 years or 15 years, life extension program or new plane, like the ADF. The Argentine Fightinghawks are basically new -although not cheap-. Although buying from AMARC or US stocks is the best deal, since the US can use EDA or FMS type deals. I like the F-16ADF, its a good deal, the reservation i have about it is that does it retain the bombing capabilities of a regular F-16? If buying from AMARC stocks, also look around for stored F/A-18A/Bs even some C/D. Twin engined and designed for seaborne operations, capable of both Fighter and ground attack missions, greater accent to advanced weapons.

In the meantime, until we can buy second hand or even new built aircraft, what about just the old "modernize existing assets" line? S-76 gunships/troop transport, and buy attrition replacements for the MG-530. Also overhauls of OV-10s, press the Royal ThaiAF not to give the last 4 OV-10s to Indonesians-sorry if your indonesian-and just transfer them to PhAF. Training in Night Fighting abilities. US is paying for alot of the Hueys and C-130 overhauls, and ill say this again, ask them for surplus M-60s and refurbished M-16 since we lost the ability to make our own rifle, does not mean our ground forces has to fight with faulty rifles. can refurbish them locally but costs money and might as well get them from US since its free. There something that strikes me however, the AFP gets refurbished rifles while the government buys some new 210 M-16A3 rifles(US answer to Diemco C-7), plus new sniper rifles for the SAF. DILG mustve gotten funds from collecting money from local civilian government?