http://news.inq7.net/breaking/index.php?in...&story_id=57622

No fighter jets for RP until 2011-- Air Force official

The Philippines will only consider buying new military aircraft in 2011 when internal security problems are hopefully resolved, despite retiring the last of its fighter jets this year, an official said Thursday.
Air Force Chief Lieutenant General Jose Reyes said in the meantime that the military would make do with five S2-11 trainer jets with "very limited fighter capability" after the last of its 40-year-old F-5 fighter planes were decommissioned in October.

"As of now, our thrust is to clear our internal security problems. Once we're finished, that's the time we move on to the acquisition of these high-value items," Reyes said in a chance interview with reporters in Camp Aguinaldo.

"Fighter planes are very expensive, if you buy it, all of the resources of the military will be used up and we cannot afford that… At this time, we make do with what we have, the S2-11 trainers," he said.

The Department of National Defense has set a 2010 target to minimize internal security threats such as communist insurgents and Islamic extremists.

On October 1this year, the Philippine Air Force decommissioned the last of the 37 F-5 or "Freedom Fighter" planes that it received from the US, its main military ally.

The F-5 jets saw action against leftist and Muslim insurgents and against rebel soldiers who staged one of the bloodiest coup d'etats against former president Corazon Aquino in 1986.

Air Force spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Restituto Padilla said they had 16 S2-11 jets in the inventory but only four to five were operational.

If the military meets its 2010 target, Reyes said planning would start on the acquisition of new fighter planes though he would not say what aircraft models would be purchased.

"By 2011, these types of aircraft -- the F-16s and the F-18s -- are already obsolete. That's why as of now, we have not done any planning on what types of jets to acquire after this internal security problem," Reyes said.

But Reyes said training of fighter pilots would continue with the use of S211 jets. These are also being used for patrol and reconnaissance missions, he added.

"We will continue to train fighter pilots. Not all of them will transfer to commercial [airlines]," Reyes said, as he admitted that Air Force pilots were drawn to commercial airlines mainly because of the higher compensation.

[QUOTE]"By 2011, these types of aircraft -- the F-16s and the F-18s -- are already obsolete. That's why as of now, we have not done any planning on what types of jets to acquire after this internal security problem," Reyes said.

at least we know the possibility is there for the JSF or eurofighter could be in PAF colours in 2011. Plus the foresight of aquiring 4th or 5th generational platform.
However, hopefully in the next 5 years a interim aircraft is purchased or more s211 operationalized in order to further train and prepare our future fighter jocks.

6 yrs... like going back to elementary and waiting to go to highschool :drunk:

so, no planning done whatsoever, so does it mean that they'lll start planning after 2011?or whenever the internal threat is defeated? from the military's record of "planning" acquisitions, the complexities of the bidding process, all the red tape, the PAF may not see fighters for the next 20 years.

Erap was elected almost 7.5 years ago, and that doesn't seem that long ago (at least from my perspective, and maybe other posters too) so 6 years...well, of course, waiting is hard.

What's more amazing is they expect to "solve" the internal security problem in 6 years, something they haven't been able to do in the past 35 years.

What's to plan, really. When we have the money and the wherwithal to acquire, the lords of war will be knocking at our door.
Fearless forecast, check with me in 6 years hehe, despite all the Euro and non-Western alternatives, it will be an American plane.

i agree w/ tirad. What's the point planning now when in 2011 the planes we talk about now (falcon, hornet , flnker, fulcrum, kfir, mirage, even grippen) will or maybe be obsolete. The powers given by GMA to the DND to directly negotiate will drastically speed up the acquisition process. just my 50 cents.

Actually, 2011 could be optimistic for acquiring an all-new strike fighter. Baka yan pa lang yung interim fighter o new-generation lead-in fighter trainer, T-50 block 2011.

Baka yang MRF sa 3rd phase pa, starting 2017. Hello F-35 block 2020.

Sidenote on waiting for military hardware: Chile this year ordered 3 A400M, yung future Euro transport na bigger than C-130 but smaller than C-17. Delivery to Chile? Between 2018-2022 daw. Tiyaga no.

We are currently undergoing Phase I (COIN/CT) of the PAF's CUP. Priority will be given to the acquisition of equipment for its infantry units (710th SPOW) like radios, automatic weapons (SAWs, Assault Rifles and Carbines) and NVGs. These ground combat elements of the PAF would be joining the PA, PMC, CAFGUs and the PNP in engaging Tangos and insurgents.

Funds will also be allocated for the upgrade of air assets crucial in COIN namely the UH1H Huey, OV10 Bronco, MG520 Defender and SF260Ps.

It was also previously announced that the PAF will be also be acquiring 6 night-operable attack helos. These would most likely be Light Observation/Attack helicopters with advanced sensors like the Bell Kiowa or tricked out Defenders.

If the Governement plans to de-fang all insurgencies and terrorist groups here by 2011, it shouldn't only rely on Military options. Putting your eggs in .223s, 105mms 500 pounders and 2.75in FFARs would only lead to a messy neverending struggle. It will result in a fiscal blackhole that will suck DND funds better spent for the acquisition of more advanced systems and training personnel which will instead be diverted to the running costs of fighting a protracted campaign including fuel, ammunition and medical/funerary expenses.

The Military option should work in concert with these other Areas:

Socio-Economic - Bring authentic development into afflicted areas by giving residents livelihood oppurtunities as well as ensuring all basic services are delivered efficiently.

Socio-Cultural - Enter into dialogue with marginalized sectors involved in the conflict and allow them further representation in government while ensuring full integration into and greater acceptance by larger Philippine Society.

Political - The Government should also address its issues that could cause further turmoil that could stoke the conflict like the current Crisis of Distrust (aka Hello Garci BS) affecting the Presidency, as well as supposed Human Rights Violations allegedly committed by combatants especially by some mebers of the AFP and PNP.

A land where there is no great divide between rich and poor, no exclusion of minorities ,and is run by a credible and just government is a land where insurgencies and terrorism won't thrive.

what if the insurgency drags on for another 35 yrs... :drunk:

"Fighter planes are very expensive, if you buy it, all of the resources of the military will be used up :demon: and we cannot afford that… At this time, we make do with what we have, the S2-11 trainers," he said.

no surprise there.

"By 2011, these types of aircraft -- the F-16s and the F-18s -- are already obsolete. That's why as of now, we have not done any planning on what types of jets to acquire after this internal security problem," Reyes said.

WHAT THE?! the Storm and the Super Bug OBSOLETE?!

only one technology can conceivably render today's mainstays "obsolete": stealth. with all due respect to the Typhoon and to the Rafale, only one possible candidate fully satisfies this criteria.

another surprise: 2011? sooner than expected by many speculating on a PAF fighter acquisition.

real surprise: 2010? the insurgency? "finished?"

and people call me an optimist.

But Reyes said training of fighter pilots would continue with the use of S211 jets. These are also being used for patrol and reconnaissance missions, he added.

"We will continue to train fighter pilots. Not all of them will transfer to commercial [airlines]," Reyes said, as he admitted that Air Force pilots were drawn to commercial airlines mainly because of the higher compensation.

one thing's clear: no way the S211 can prepare our pilots for the latest generation MRFs. the S211 was designed to fill the same slot in the syllabus occupied by propeller-driven trainers like the Tucano, it isn't suited for lead-in fighter training like the Hawk is.

so, logically, if the PAF really intends to operate MRFs, the next major PAF purchase won't be an MRF but a lead-in fighter trainer like the T-50 and the L159, both of which also happen to be credible lightweight fighters.

or, equally logical, since the PAF's priority is finishing the terrs (which might take beyond 2010) and since all the PAF has at present to strike against the terrs are the Broncos (which might not last much beyond 2010) the next major PAF purchase might be a modern COIN platform like the Super Tucano, which also happens to be a highly-capable training platform.

decisions, decisions... :armywink:

now I got a headache :dunno:

I don't think the AFP will be able to "finish" the rebs by 2011. There'll always be schmucks who'll be seduced into becoming self-appointed killing messiahs by a discredited, intolerant ideology. What could be hoped for by that time, though, is to reduce their numbers to something more "manageable", like say 5,000 Neps or less, as was achieved circa 1995, which made it realistically possible to make modernization plans back then.

Of course, as was pointed out earlier and many times before, depends on other social, political, economic, etc. factors. Fighting an insurgency is like climbing a mountain, going up (gains) is difficult but make a mistake (or lots of them) and going down (setbacks) is easy.

About the Super Tucanos. I'm a fan too, I think it's the most capable new-built prop trainer/light-attack aircraft out there but just like with Colombia which attempted to buy them from Brazil, the US will block such an acquisition if ever, just because they offer a competing product in the T-6 Texan. (I think the reasoning for the US pressure was kung utang o aid ($1bilyones in Colombia's case) sa amin, pero bakit kung kung may cash na pambili sa iba ($200-300M? for 28 ALXs). War is big business after all.) Surplus T-6A trainers upgraded to light-attack T-6B maybe.

We dont need to wait until 2011.

When the economy improves, we will get these MRFs sooner than 2011.

Nonetheless, the COIN campaign is crucial to this realization.

The insurgency is holding back the country's economic development.

The military must now do its best to end the insurgency.

Buying better "night-flying" attack choppers like the Cobra or Kiowa and light attack planes like the L159 or the AS211 will be viable since it still covered by the requirements of Phase 1.

These attack aircrafts will greatly help the military in its COIN campaign.

The earlier we defang the insurgents, the earlier we can expect getting our MRFs and OPVs.

I agree with Possible that the fast jets that we hope to acquire in as early as 2011 would not be dedicated MRFs but Trainer Jets that double as LCAs like the L159, AT50 or BAe Hawk. They'll not only prepare us for more able MRFs we hope to acquire by 2017 but be able to hold the line and give our troops a helping hand.

I doubt our insurgency and terrorist problems will be over by 2011. As long as economic gains to do not reach the countryside, as long as there Ethnic Monorities whose rights aren't recognized and respected, and as long as many perceive our Government to be corrupt, incompetent and serves only the interests of the elite, there will still be NPA, MILF, ASG and JI giving us chronic migraines.

The best the Government can do aside from deploying the military and invite Foreign Investorrs would be to clean it's house. It must proves it's worth as THE legitimate Philippine Governement so that the people would its trust and not run to the Communists and Extremist Muslim Separatists as alternatives. The Government should do something about it's problems without having to resort palliatives like Cha Cha or extreme measures like forcing the President out of office.

Going back to MRFs, I wonder what other fighters out there are currently in development that could replace the F5A other than the Gripen, F35, F22, Typhoon, Rafale, and Flanker family of fighters?

this is really getting more pathetic! :headbang:

what the hell is in the mind of General Reyes? he dismissed the F-16 and the F/A-18 as "obsolete" by 2011? goodness! those two planes are going to stay a little longer (with Chile, Israel, Poland, UAE and Greece buying the latest variants of the F-16 and Kuwait and Malaysia expressing interest in the Super Hornet), in contrast to what this WEIRDO head of the PAF is saying.

well, we can wait for 2011 for the actual acquisition of modern, spanking-new MRFs but WE CANNOT LEAVE OUR AIRSPACE DEFENSELESS and at the same time, DEPEND SOLELY ON THE YANKS FOR OUR OWN COUNTRY'S DEFENSE NEEDS. that's exactly why we need to get interim fighters (upgraded F-5E/Fs, Mirage F1s and Kfirs or, if we will be luckier, F-16 ADF or MLUs or CF-18s) to fill in the gap before the modern, spanking-new MRFs actually enter service in the PAF. if we cannot get those interim fighter aircraft that i previously mentioned, at least the PAF should get those surplus Czech Air Force L-159As and ink with Aero Vodochody a deal to license-build and redevelop the L-159A/B Alca for the PAF's next generation LCA and advanced/lead-in fighter training aircraft.

if we are to follow what "wise guys" like Reyes and Avelino Cruz have planned for "AFP Modernization," the PAF will get its F-16s or F/A-18s or Gripens at a time when the whole of the Asia-Pacific is already flying space-age combat aircraft. heck, even East Timor, Brunei, Cambodia, Myanmar, Mongolia and Bangladesh might soon surpass the Philippines in terms of military might if such mentality will continue to persist in the AFP and the whole government establishment itself. :nono:


oh... by the way, there's no indication that this government, including those political minions who are in the military hierarchy right now, wanted to end the Communist insurgency and rebel separatism once and for all. besides, without the "war" against the insurgents and separatists, the politicos and their minions, along with opportunist civilians, will not get kickbacks in deals for troop equipment such as assault rifles, NVGs, bulletproof vests, uniforms and even boots. :demon:


let's just wait until those "real Filipinos" in the AFP launch a military uprising, topple the FAILED civilian government, dissolve Congress, suspend the 1987 Constitution and FINALLY SET THINGS STRAIGHT IN THIS ALREADY SCREWED-UP COUNTRY.

with the civilians- both those in government and the electorate- already failing this country, perhaps the military will be the source for the Park Cheung Hee, Lee Kuan Yew or Mahathir Mohammad that could save this F*CKED UP country known as the Philippines. :thumb:

Um, then what? You really think those Gripens and F-18s will come in then? With what money? Economic sanctions sa international community abutin ng junta na yan and yehey panalo na naman ang ordinaryong Pinoy. Can't unscrew something by screwing it some more.

as long as these foreigners also sustain their own selfish interests in this country of ours and that Filipinos continue to reap the benefits of corruption and dishonesty, change WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

those foreigners, especially the Yanks, keep on telling us to have a clean and honest government and yet, here they are, propping up a corrupt and failed civilian regime.

besides, what is their right to meddle into our own internal affairs anyway? a change of regime in the Philippines is a purely internal matter that SHOULD NOT BE INTERFERED by foreigners, most especially the Yankees.

i tell you... the Philippines has no bright future with its current crop of civilian officials and electorate. most of the "good ones" have either left the country out of dismay to the system or "have been silenced by those working with the status quo." the ONLY HOPE that the Philippines now has are those IDEALISTIC and PATRIOTIC officers of the Armed Forces of the Philippines. the next Park Chung Hee- a military officer who launched a coup and helped transform South Korea into the economic powerhouse that it is right now- that could save the Philippines could come from one of those officers. :thumb:

I generally agree with your appraisal of our present situation. I just also totally disagree with your solution.

i know my solution to the current political, economic, social and moral malaise that the Philippines is experiencing right now is both radical and painful, but just like a medicine being injected into a sick person, a short-term pain that the Philippines must undergo will lead into long-term prosperity and stability for this archipelagic nation of ours. :thumb:

Long term goals of the AFP make a good sense for me. All we wanted right now is to transform our Armed Forces into a better and well equip organization.We need to come up a good plan to equip our poor armed institution. Right now we see the proposal and the start of the project.And it is currently implementing their first phase this year.

What the Modernization Act in 1995 draw a big set back to the AFP and DND.The modernization plan only features a short term developmental goal in which is very wrong and never projected the future of the whole AFP and safety net incase the plans cannot go on. The Asian financial crisis that really hurt the modernization plan and blow up the whole development this problem was never projected by the AFP planning body.

So for me, Lets abide to the phase of the developmental plan of the AFP.For me it really made a lot of sense since we are suffering a financial back drop.No need to hurry up in the acquisition. Slowly but surely building our forces is a carefull planning of our force and we can really show the our fellow Asean countries that we can rise from the midst of the odds.

^ but how can you actually jumpstart the slow but sure re-equipping of the Armed Forces if the institution itself is plagued with corrupt and inept officials. add to it the fact that the civilian government is also corrupt and inept and that the electorate is just as inept and corrupt as the politicians that they elect in office. :headbang:

oh well... :armysad: :armycry:

I am sorry Israeli but the idea of a Putsch as a syringe of penicillin to the buttocks does not sit well with me. I know that our problems call for such drastic measures. However, the idea of a strongman like Park Chung Hee or Lee Kwan Yew in command flopped here with Marcos. The system of checks and balances did not work because every buck stopped with him and all you needed to take advantage would be to be in his favor.

I do not think Dancing the Cha Cha or forcing out GMA out and propping up some "Caretaker"Government would be of help. The problem is that they aren't giving our system a chance by either skirting through loopholes or taking advantage of our inability to enforce the law and by sucking ass and dropping names.

However, here are a few reforms that could help:

1. Do something about Campaign Finance. As we know, running for public office especially Nationally elected positions cost a lot and it is a cardinal rule that a candidate with the most funds at his disposal would have the best chance of winning. It is also a fact that candidates would turn to anyone for those needed funds with the understanding that he must do a little something for them in return when he finally assumes office.

2. Change the Curriculum of trhe PMA. MSantor suggested they include more units of humanities. A lot of Philo and Morals will give them the whys aside from the hows in being a CO. They should also do something about their notion of brotherhood. Just because you and your fellow Mistah share the experience of hazing while a plebe doesn't mean you stand by him as he salts away Millions of Pesos in DND funds for his Mansion and squadron of SUVS or as he launches a Coup.

my god have we never learn from the Marcos era about dictatorship... :headbang:

but i agree with Israeli's idea...

:nono:

a military uprising may seem so harsh, but it is one good way to change this messed up country.

Enough of the Political ranting and calls for Military Adventurism, folks and let's get back to the topic.

I know that we need to keep more aggressive nations at bay. However, a developing nation like us, given our current political and economic situation, buying any fast jet, multi-engine transport or even advanced attack helos is a bad idea since it would drag us deeper in debt and we can't use them for long given our limited infrastructure.

You might want to read what Saver111 has to say: http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=2437

We're better off with STOL 1-2 engine turboprops for our tactical transport and CAS needs since they're much simpler and cheaper to maintain and operate than even LOH/Light Attack helos and can operate at longer ranges. They can also carry more payload.

What we need to fight those tangos doesn't have to be as hi-tech as attack jets with targetting systems and weapons that cost as much as the planes themselves, as long as they can do the job efficiently and effectively, they will do. Besides we need to save every cent allocated to the DND if this war would drag on.

I also want to see our pilots fly fast jets and regain supremacy over our skies once again. However, we must literally lay the groundwork for these aircraft by building a stable economy and developing our industries if we hope to field even Guerilla Jets like L159s or F20s by 2011. We should also do something about the festering insurgencies.

sorry for the long delay folks but finally found it. taken a year ago close to "areas of interest" to the philippines. what you dont see is the f-14 flying behind it. this is not a magazine/internet, etc picture. now if i may put in my two cents: the point is not only to discourage external aggression. like it or not, with planes like this, our neighbors will be able to bend the policies of the philippines. imagine an unauthorized indonesian flyby into a major philippine city. how do you think our politicians will react? dont you think that this come into play when malacanang makes decision wrt muslim mindanao? or from an economic point of view, malaysia/indonesia/etc can put fishing fleets wherever they want and we cant do a darn thing about it. fighters/strike planes are not just for fighting aggressors folks, its how you get your national policies going...

We will have to handle those aggressive neighbors of ours with diplomacy for now. The worse threats to our National Security for now would be the NPA and Islamic-Extermist groups especially those backed by Al Qaeda. We would have to prioritize blasting the guys who would rather ambush our troops, torch cell sites, bomb our cities and raid small towns rather than those whom we can level with us on the negotiating table on our terms.

The only way to get our fighter squadrons back on line would be to neuter our insurgency problems once and for all.

:agree: with you

Its seems that those oldy rusty F-14 D has a new life but never push thru. What do you think of acquiring the plans of the TOM CAT 2000? It make a lot of sense for me since the F-14 is the backbone of the US carrier fleet for 2 decades.Maybe this might be a possilbe candidate for the new aero development. The TOMCAT 2000 has a newer studies and research. And more sophisticated than ever been. kaya nga A-12 or the TOMCAT 2000 has been opted because of the presence of the E/A-18 E/F Growler.

I like the Tomcat especially its looks and its long-range interception capabilities. Unfortunately, it is not the best fighter for the PAF. The way it was built, it would need billions to maintain and operate such a jet. The F14 is also a fuel hog. What we need is something that is cheap to maintain and operate and isn't a guzzler. That's why I prefer the L159, Gripen or the F20. One other fighter that deserves consideration would be the EADS Mako which could have good performance and do double duty as a trainer too.

what is the designation of this fighter?

MiG-29N from 19 "Cobra" Squadron of the Tentera Udara Diraja Malaysia or Royal Malaysian Air Force based at Kuantan AB.

the KAI/Lockheed Martin A/T-50 Golden Eagle is the only F-5 replacement flying. compare its stats with the Gripen:

very close, particularly weights, and remember these are only the figures for the two-seater, a single-seat dedicated fighter version of the T-50 will be an even better performer. the Korean Air Force needs a replacement for its F-5 fleet, most likely that will be a future development of the A/T-50.

for now, A/T-50 is equipped with electronic fly-by-wire and digital flight control just like Gripen. the A-50 combat version will be equipped with Lockheed Martin's APG-67 multimode radar, the same radar used in the F-20 Tigershark, but there's no reason why a newer radar can't be installed such as the Fiar Grifo X used in the Brazilian F-5BR, or even an Israeli radar so it can employ Israeli missiles such as Python 5 and Derby.

Let us face it, no pilot wants to fly mere trainer jet, if ever the Philippines is going to buy the A/T50 the PAF should change the designation of the plane from A/T50 to F/A50 with the F stands for fighter and the A stands for attack. It should come into 2 models one seater and two seater version.

correct. the main barrier against fighters developed from trainers like the T-50 is psychological, pilots will likely complain and hold out until the PAF can obtain F-35s or Typhoons.

to overcome this, KAI/Lockheed Martin should take a page from Northrop's strategy for marketing the F-5: the F-5A was also developed from a trainer, its airframe is in fact nearly identical to that of the T-38, and like the A/T-50 it also began life as an attack aircraft:

despite this inauspicious start, the F-5 still managed to become a sales success, simply because the economic arguments were in its favor. if the price and operating costs of the A/T-50 (or F/A-50) can remain advantageous against heavier MRFs, it has everything else it needs to follow in the footsteps of the F-5.

Sir Possible, got any price comparison between the A/T50 vs Grippen?
from the side by side comparison and if theres a big price difference, our beloved PAF would be better off flying the A/T50
would'nt you think so? :thumb:

Guys, can you also compare the AT50 to the EADS Mako? It's one other fighter in development that wcould hopefully hit the market by 2011 or 2015.

and the indonesians are stupid enough to disregard the diplomatic repercussions of this?

cheap maritime patrol planes and small patrol boats can do this job better and cheaper than expensive supersonic jets

this is straight from the 80s.... tell me, just how can a squadron of expensive f16s "get our national policies going?"

Estimated Cost for the combat version A-50:
$20-22 million per unit

Maximum take off weight
29,700 lbs

Empty Weight
14,285 lbs

Max Thrust (F404 variant)
17,000 lbs

Dimensions
Length: 13,13 m
Height: 4,90 m
Span: 9,17 m
Max Speed at Sea Level
Mach 1.5

Max Ceiling, 48,500ft

Rate of climb
37,000 ft/min

-3/+8G

It would seem that it has a better thrust to weight ratio than the Gripen, it's climb rate is certainly better. What I'm interested in is clarifying if the t/w ratio is indeed superior (other sources) as well as the range (there were rumors that it is also superior, but I cannot clarify this).

What makes me interested in this aircraft is that it appears to be what a light weight fighter should be, cheap! For a new build aircraft it's only other contemporaries are the FC-1. The Ching-Kuo, which is similar in performance and "did it" much earlier, is very unlikely to be exported, and it seems that India may not export the LCA or at least for not some time based on the posts below.

In comparison to the Gripen, it may offer better thrust and perhaps even better range, but most importantly, at a better cost. With the Gripen costing as much as the heavier F-16 Block 50-52, based on contracts and offers in Europe (ranging from 45m - 53m).

What the Gripen does have that it's been out already and has been integrated with many exportable weapons such as Israeli, American and Swedish weapons so far.

However the Golden Eagle will be using an American Radar (APG-67) and has been displayed with Mavericks and sidewinders and there are already plans to implement it with the AMRAAM which should not be too difficult.

In Terms of Markets.. the Gripen has been popular with Eastern European nations (Czech, Hungary), and has scored only one order outside of Europe, that being South Africa, while it is currently competing in a Brazilian deal that seems likely to go to Sukhoi.

The ROKAF has finally ordered several Golden Eagles, and the type has captured Israel and Vietnam's interest. With the latter perhaps using it to replace the aging MiG-21s.

If some kind of networking capability is added to it, ala Gripen, and it's cost kept to under 25m.. it could lead to a great defensive aircraft that could be bought in numbers

any thoughts on it's potential?

[URL=http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-29510.html]
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/i...hp?t-29510.html[/URL]


More comparison on this link.

wushu, what will you use to back up your diplomatic protest? look up and beg to the us for support again? how long did it take diplomacy and how many lives were lost before the east timor situation was resolve? (just using indonesia as an example, could be anybody/any state). i guess you have never geard of paf ov-10s being chased by foreign jets (good example of how these countries got their policies going using fast movers) or patrol boats being outgunned by chinese destroyers/frigates. i believe there were no problems of the same magnitude we have now in the spratly when f-8s were stationed in palawan. come to think of it, territory was lost despite our diplomatic protests...