Taiwan's president, struggling to convince parliament of the need for expensive new weaponry, said Thursday new submarines were essential for the island to defend itself from attack by mainland China.

In an elaborate public relations exercise, President Chen Shui-bian took a group of journalists out on the navy's "Sea Tiger," a Dutch-built Sword Dragon-class submarine, off southern Taiwan to carry out routine drills.

The exercise was not part of ongoing war games in both China and Taiwan that have prompted the United States to call for restraint from both sides in order to avoid provoking already tense relations between the rivals.

"Submarines would be the best weaponry to defend Taiwan from (Chinese) attack ... as they are able to launch a blitz and easy to hide," Chen told reporters after wrapping up the unprecedented exercise.

The deal to buy an unspecified number of US-built submarines is part of a controversial budget of 610 billion Taiwan dollars (18.2 billion US) to update Taiwan's military with weaponry including anti-missile systems and anti-submarine aircraft over a 15-year period from 2005.

The deal is to go before parliament for approval towards the end of the year.

Military analysts say the submarines are critical to counter China's naval build up.

The Taiwanese navy currently operates a fleet of four submarines, but only two of them could be deployed in the event of war. The other two are Guppy-class warships built by the United States in the 1940s.

Chen has insisted the arms package is intended to defend Taiwan and has vowed to maintain peace in the Taiwan Strait.

China has repeatedly threatened to invade Taiwan should the island declare formal independence, prompting Taipei to keep seeking advanced weaponry to defend itself.

The United States has remained the leading arms supplier to Taiwan despite switching diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979.

The two sides split in 1949 after a civil war.

Link

paano ba sila makabili ng diesel subs sa US e di na marunong gumawa ng ssk ang mga kano, lahat ng sub building capability nila nuclear na :blink:

a major headache indeed as Peter Felstead wrote in this article:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/taiwanarms.htm

Excerpt:

Submarines from where?
How these submarines will be supplied is another matter, since the USA no longer has an indigenous capability to build diesel-electric patrol submarines. One obvious potential source of supply would have been the link-up between US companies Litton Ingalls Shipbuilding and Lockheed Martin and Dutch boatbuilders RDM, a joint venture formed to offer Moray class submarines to Egypt.

RDM, however, has been blocked in the past from selling submarines direct to Taiwan by the Dutch government - despite the Dutch having supplied Taiwan's two Hai Lung-class patrol submarines in 1987/88. Yesterday a Dutch Foreign Ministry spokesman told the Bloomberg News Service that current Dutch policy meant that "no weapons are to be sold to Taiwan or to third parties for resale to Taiwan".

Germany would be a possible alternative source, but Berlin, too, has shied away from selling submarines to Taiwan for fear of incensing the Chinese. A spokesman for German Chancellor Gerhard Shroeder told Bloomberg yesterday: "We wouldn't permit the sale."

France, which also builds diesel-electric submarines, has in the past supplied Taiwan with six Kang Ding (La Fayette) class frigates, Mirage 2000 fighters and other weapons - but at the cost of much deteriorated relations with Beijing.

Its a problem alright. But not insurmountable. One thing about the Taiwanese is that they are extremely resourceful. A case of 'when there's a will, there's a way'. They have the capability but they lack the know-how. I see them making their own subs (with US assistance) if no one wants to sell them one.

I agree. This is the most practical option left open for the Taiwanese. They have the money and the industrial resources, the US can provide SSK technology "borrowed" from the Europeans and bingo, new indigenous SSKs. :bounce:

Money talks... the Taiwanese have capital to burn and they if they are intent on gettting them, they will get them somewhere, somehow.. my money is on the French.. they'll sell anything for the right price..

France is now very cozy with the PRC, no it will not risk this highly profitable relationship by selling submarines or other platforms to Taiwan.

My, what a hot fudge this will become! :wow: That is if this report is true:

Report: U.S. to Approve Sale of Aegis Ships to Taiwan


TAIPEI (Reuters) - The United States will announce the sale of four Aegis missile-defense warships to Taiwan next year with delivery likely to begin in 2011, a newspaper said on Monday.

Taiwan has long sought the destroyers, which would be an important defense against about 500 ballistic missiles pointed at the island by arch-foe China, but Washington has so far only offered less advanced Kidd-class destroyers to Taipei.

The mass-circulation China Times quoted unidentified sources as saying the United States has agreed to sell four Aegis-equipped destroyers to Taiwan in a $3.5 billion deal.

Taiwan's defense ministry said it had not received any word from Washington about the vessels.

"With regards to the Aegis matter, the Ministry of National Defense has not received any notification from the United States up to now," said spokesman Huang Suey-sheng.

"The Aegis is, of course, a weapon that is sought by our navy. If the United States agrees to sell, we plan to buy."

China views Taiwan as a renegade province that must be reunified, by force if necessary. Beijing opposes any arms sales to Taiwan but is particularly against the Aegis vessels due to their potential use in a regional anti-ballistic missile shield.

Taiwan is also considering an $18 billion purchase of Patriot anti-missile systems, submarines and anti-submarine aircraft, which would be the biggest arms deal between Washington and the island. Taiwan is hoping to cut the cost by $3 billion.

Full story

And how will the US explain this sale to China, eh? :D

Bakit ba atat na atat sila sa aegis, ano ba meron nito na wala sa ibang warship?

Because AEGIS is considered to be the best integrated naval platform around.

If Im not mistaken, AEGIS stands for Active Envelope Guidance and Intercept System. This is an air defense system designed to track down 100+ simultaneous targets...

Which is most applicable to Taiwan's defensive posture in view of the PLA's massive advantage in offensive rocketry.

china would never allow selling of aegis destroyers to taiwan, they will consider this an act of war and may cause the invasion of taiwan :wow:

Do you really think that 4 AEGIS destroyers will be able to intercept 100% the 'swarms' of Chinese SSMs and ASMs?

Old but still capable Tico cruiser could end up in Taiwan :armyeek:


__________
Although it’s not being publicly advertised for sale, one item soon will appear for the first time on the list of out-of-service U.S. warships: an Aegis cruiser.

On Aug. 30, the cruiser USS Valley Forge will become the first ship equipped with the Aegis combat radar system to leave service. For U.S. allies eager to acquire an Aegis ship at a bargain price, and who don’t mind a 350-man crew requirement, the Valley Forge — and four sister ships scheduled to decommission in the next 18 months — could be an attractive prospect.

Taiwan for years has wanted to acquire Aegis technology, and recent media reports throughout Asia again have raised the issue of acquiring new Aegis-equipped ships. Neither the United States nor Taiwan publicly has revealed whether there is any interest in transferring the cruisers to Taiwan, but their availability could be tempting.

“The Taiwanese do not have the kind of personnel problems we do, because people are not as expensive,” said naval analyst A. D. Baker, adding, “they have the technological infrastructure to maintain an Aegis system.”

Taiwan’s legislature is debating the merits of a huge $16 billion special spending bill that includes eight U.S.-built diesel submarines, P-3C aircraft and PAC-3 Patriot anti-missile missiles. Analysts feel the country needs to decide about those weapon programs — as well as several upcoming elections — before seriously discussing possible acquisition of the cruisers.

“Nobody’s going to be able to look at Aegis in any kind of serious way until next spring,” said John Tkacik, an Asian analyst with the Heritage Foundation in Washington. By that time, Tkacik said, there could be a growing consensus in the United States and Taiwan that, with China continuing to add ballistic missiles to its arsenal, transferring Aegis ships to Taiwan might be more important than submarines.

New Aegis cruisers cost the U.S. Navy about $1.2 billion each. For Taiwan, purchasing the cruisers would be far less costly and, although they were built in the early 1980s, Baker estimates each ship still has “at least 15 to 20 years of good service in it.”

The cost for the Taiwan submarine program is projected at around $10 billion, and none are yet under construction.

“My own thought is, if you’re looking for Aegis for $5 billion [compared with the submarine program], I think I’d go with the Aegis and start going in that direction,” Tkacik said. “One reason is: Aegis is there. The submarines don’t exist.”
_______________
Source

Even if Taiwan manages to get the Tico or the Burkes , its still imperative for them to procure SSKs.

Subs as psychological weapons are inspensable. China will have to use considerable resources looking for Taiwan's submarines.

Those early "Ticonderoga Class"cruisers have been updated since they entered service, albeit not to the level that the latest Aegis radars. The main reason they are being retired is they have the Mk.26 launchers vs the now standard VLS.

Since Taiwan is already acquiring the Kidd Class which uses the Mk 26's and has a great deal of commonality with the early "Tico's" it would be a very good idea for Taiwan to acquire the first 5 Ticos. Datalinks can be established to allow the 4 ex-Kidds to interface with the Tico's thereby increasing the rate of fire against aerial targets. All 5 of these Tico's are barely or less 20 yrs of age.

Considering the rate the Chicoms are increasing their armed forces & threats against an established democracy I hope the US government offers these early Tico's to Taiwan at "bargin prices", as well as the seven decommed Spruances. These ships in these 3 classes have the same hull, propulsion, and aux systems for cost-effectiveness. The Taiwan Navy is already trained on these ships.

In addition, the US gov should send Perry Class frigates as they become available. ESSM could be added to all of these ships rather easily.

Taiwan needs all the equipement they can get to defend themselves. As I said the US gov should give Taiwan "major" discounts and/or military aid for whatever systems they need including PAC-3, THAAD or Arrow, Tomahawks, F-15's & 16's, etc.

Since the Aegis system is well developed I think it would be wise for Taiwan to inquire into the development of a "land-based" Aegis system for both anti-air and missile defense. This would add some redundance and extra capability to complement the PAC2/3 system. There's no doubt that if/when the Chicoms attack there will be a massive missile & air attack. A multi-layer defense would better able to handle it & attrit large numbers of attacking platforms. Adding a land-based AMRAAM and RAM capability would be wise also.


:rifle:

Taiwan needs every damn AEGIS warship available especially if China's plan to acquire Backfire bombers pushes through.


:armyeek:

The Russians are not that foolish to sell Backfire bombers to China, the possibility that the planes will be used against them someday is still there.

And Russia will lean hard against Ukraine not selling its Backfires to China either.

ukrainee is very poor country, it cannot even operate their military vehicles and air force because of lack of funds. it is campaigning for sale of its tanks and fighters and bombers and according to some reports they had already sold 4 Backfire bombers to China although expectedly denied by both!




:rifle:

Are you sure about this Singa? I think you mistook China for India.
India planned to lease 4 Tu-22M3 Backfire bombers from Russia but the deal didn't push through.

What are the ultralights doing there? :armyeek:

Because it's 2004 Taiwan Sports Airshow

ASIA, can you provide more info on this helo, I believe this is highly suitable for Philippines service.

This is called Hugh 500MD, used in Taiwan Navy as a detroyer-carried, ASM helicopter.

a light helicopter for asm work...interesting...armaments and avionics - any specifics?

The Hughes 500MD/ASW is Taiwan's first helicopter dedicated to anti-submarine warfare. These helicopters featured a Bendix RDR-1200 search radar housed in a nose radome offset to the port side. One towed ASQ-81C(V)2 magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) is carried on the starboard fuselage. The skids were heightened to provide extra clearance for two Mk44 or Mk46 torpedos carried underneath the fuselage, although normally only one torpedo is carried to maximize endurance and range.

Service History
The first batch of the twelve 500MD/ASW ordered in 1977 arrived in Taiwan on March 4, 1980. They reached IOC at the end of 1983 and were deployed onboard "Gearing" and "Sumner" class destroyers. Four 500MD/ASW have been lost, including 6902, 6903, and 6906. The other serial number is unknown.

http://www.taiwanairpower.org/500md.html

i knoe phillipines have defender helicopters, maybe you can modify 4 for asw... :agree:

Taiwan Unveils New Vehicle, Stresses Need for Defenses
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, NANTOU, Taiwan

Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian on Jan.11 unveiled a new, homemade armored vehicle, stressing the need to beef up self-defense capabilities with rival China preparing a hostile law aimed at the island.

“Beijing has continued to suppress Taiwan’s space in the international community and even attempts to create a legal basis for the use of force against Taiwan in the so-called anti-secession law,” Chen said at a military base in central Taiwan.

“Therefore, A Bian (Chen’s nickname) urges the public to support the (government) policy of strengthening self-defense capabilities,” he said while unveiling the eight-wheeled, CM-32 armored vehicle.

Beijing is mulling a law aimed at preventing Taiwan from becoming independent, which analysts said could create the legal basis for China to take the island by force or pressure it to accept reunification.

Chen named the vehicle “Yun Pao” (Cloud Leopard) for its mobility, speed and firepower.

“Yun Pao” was jointly developed by the military and industrial research institutions in a 700 million Taiwan dollar ($21.88 million) project launched in 2002.

It has a maximum speed of 100 kilometers (62 miles) per hour and is especially designed for Taiwan’s hilly topography.

Equipped with guns, “Yun Pao” will become the army’s most powerful armored vehicle when mass production starts in 2007.

Taiwan, worried about China’s growing military strength, has been upgrading its weaponry research and development abilities in recent years.

The defense ministry reportedly has successfully test-fired its Hsiung Feng III supersonic anti-ship missile in November in a major military technology breakthrough.

The missile is believed to outperform China’s Russia-made SS-N-22 Sunburn supersonic anti-ship missile.

Taiwan and China split in 1949 after a civil war but Beijing still considers the island part of its territory awaiting reunification, by force if necessary.

could be possible to convert 2 of our defenders to asw role carried on board any of our LSTs :armyhuh:

...talk about putting each man to good use:

Taiwanese sailors refurbishing retired US Navy destroyers

(Charleston-AP) Jan. 29, 2005 - About 500 Taiwanese sailors are refurbishing warships for Taiwan's navy at a Charleston shipyard.

And by July about 1,000 will be repairing and learning to operate four retired US Navy destroyers Taiwan bought in 2001.

The Taiwanese crews will sail for Asia when the work is finished. Work on the first ship will be completed later this year and the last ship is expected to sail by early 2007.

The warships were built in the 1970s and decommissioned in the late 1990s. The work is being done under a $100 million contract with an Alexandria, Virginia-based defense contractor.

The company also trains the Taiwanese sailors and coordinates repair efforts with shipyard employees.


:aberet: I believe these are the Kidd-class destroyers Taiwan acquired in lieu of the AEGIS capable Arleigh Burkes they so desperately wanted.

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2874887&nav=0RaPVl5n

A.S.I.A.-Asia Sky Image Archives

[img]http://macphil.myweb.hinet.net/Macphil/Exercise/Training/IMG_0317.JPG[img]

Part of your country's ISPS Code implementation?

Taiwan Sends Frigates to Disputed Islands
By JEROME FAVRE, Associated Press Writer

Taiwan dispatched two warships Tuesday to protect its fishing boats from interference by Japanese patrol boats in waters near the disputed East China Sea islands.

The Taiwanese frigates, armed with anti-ship missiles, made no contact with the Japanese vessels during their hour-long patrol near the uninhabited islands north of Taiwan.

Both Tokyo and Taipei claim that the islands, whose waters are rich in fish, fall within their exclusive economic zones.

Japan often fines ship owners and impounds Taiwanese fishing vessels that enter the waters, and the decision to send the frigates followed complaints by fishermen that Taiwan has not done enough to protect them.

Fifteen Taiwanese lawmakers escorted by Defense Minister Lee Jye left aboard one of the frigates as it departed Taiwan's eastern Suao port for the four-hour round trip. The legislators waved Taiwanese flags and chanted patriotic slogans but Lee did not appear on deck.

Japan's representative in Taipei, Tadashi Ikeda, said Monday that it was inappropriate for Taiwan to bring its military into a fishing dispute.

Some fishermen expressed doubts about how effective the government's action would be.

"We appreciate (the action)," said Tsai Shui-ho. "But if they only go out on patrol today and don't go out tomorrow, I don't think it will help to solve the problem."

But Taiwanese Premier Frank Hsieh said Japan might now be compelled to settle the fishing dispute through negotiations.

"There may be overlapping of our exclusive economic zones, but we can discuss it and don't have to chase away the other side's boats," he said.

Taiwan has long avoided sending warships to the waters, fearing conflict with its neighbor and major trading partner.

Although Taiwan and Japan do not have diplomatic ties, Taipei tries to maintain close relations with Tokyo, seeing it as an effective military counterweight to China, the island's biggest security threat.

China, which considers Taiwan part of its territory, urged Japan to respect the rights of Taiwanese fishermen in disputed waters.

China "expresses strong dissatisfaction" at Japan's actions and believes Tokyo should "properly and prudently address the issue," Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said Tuesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050621/ap_on_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

What do you think will happen if Japan also sends warships to aid its coastguard in chasing those fishermen away?? can't wait to hear more! :fire: