Heard from the 6pm news that the Huey that crashed was one of the "new" ones that were recently given by the US. Still, they should've tackled too the topic where GMA's Air Force One has received a special budget for its refurbishment when more important and useful assets would've been better served with those funds.

City Hunter said:
"Heard from the 6pm news that the Huey that crashed was one of the "new" ones that were recently given by the US. Still, they should've tackled too the topic where GMA's Air Force One has received a special budget for its refurbishment when more important and useful assets would've been better served with those funds."


It is true the Presidential Fokker-28 was refurbished/overhauled recently, as well as the lone presidential blackhawk(s70), and good funding for the 214s, but there is a reason why presidential planes should be taken care off. Remember Pres. Magsaysay, the philippines is a victim of a great president whose life and great deeds he wouldve achieved , being killed in a plane crash.

This president got off lucky with scratches.

Honduran president taken to hospital

FREDDY CUEVAS

Associated Press

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras - A small plane carrying Honduran President Ricardo Maduro went down in the Caribbean Sea near the shore Sunday after its engine failed, and Maduro was taken to a hospital with minor injuries, the president's spokesman said.

The single-engine Cessna carrying Madero, his daughter, a pilot and a friend went into the water about 150 yards from shore at Tela, a Caribbean coastal city.

All were able to exit the plane with only minor scrapes with help from local residents.

"There were some difficult moments, but God was looking out for us and we are all well," Madero said during a television address.

Madero was briefly taken to a hospital after the mishap.

"The airplane had a mechanical problem and fell into the sea," just beyond the end of the runway at Tela, said presidential spokesman Jorge Barrios. "It is believed that the plane's engine stopped when it was making its approach for landing."

The president "suffered slight scrapes on the knees because he had to get out of the craft in the water," Barrios said.

Maduro, 59, and the others were helped from the water by local residents, and the plane - which half-sank in shallow waters - was later towed to the beach.

The single-engine Cessna 206 can hold between four and eight passengers, in addition to a two-man crew.

Tela is a popular tourist spot 155 miles north of Tegucigalpa, the capital.

Some people who were swimming or sunbathing threw life rings into the water, but Maduro didn't need them. When he got closer to shore, they recognized him as the president and helped him to shore.

Maduro, who has fought a fierce battle against street gangs in Honduras, was on his way to a scheduled a meeting in Tela with Mayor Daniel Flores about a government development project.

Barrios said Maduro would hold a news conference when he returned to the capital to explain the mishap.
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgere...ws/11539899.htm

:drunk:

Its not that I value less GMA over ordinary mortals but she should've prioritized the helicopters used by the ordinary troopers. First, it would show that she still cares for the ordinary troopers who need air support and evacuation more. Second, if she wants to use an air transport and instead use one of the ordinary Hueys, rather than her Blackhawks and such, which would have then been made well with the said funds it would even increase the Air Force standing not only with locals but also internationally. Third, it would make those coup rumors be diminished at the very least. Haven't she read Sun Tzu's Art of War? A general must gain the trust and loyalty of his troops before he can succeed in any battle.

As I said before, I personally dislike GMA but hope that she isn't toppled from power. For the alternative would even be worse.

Arguably the unit in the PAF with the highest state of readiness is the 250th Wing.

It has the most advanced and best maintained aircraft in the Air Force. It's order of battle include first line helicopters like an S70 Blackhawk, Bell 212s and the latest incarnation of the Huey, the 412. They also have the largest helicopters in the PAF inventory, 2 Aeropostale Pumas.

For fixed wing assets, they have F27 transports.

Unfortunately their mission is something the AFP can do without: airlifting the President and other high-ranking officials of government especially those in the greatest favor of Her Ecxcellency.

There is nothing wrong with this mission since she needs secure transport as the highest official of the Republic. The assets of this unit have also been used in humanitarian ops like during the typhoons last year and the massive lanslide that swallowed Brgy St. Bernard in Guinsaugon, Leyte.

However, the PAF's meager resources should be reallocated to those with greater need. Troops in the front have to make do with Vietnam War vintage UH1H Hueys and C130s to airlift their wounded and bring in vital supplies. The fact that they still fly on a regular basis is a testament to the skill and dedication of the men who maintain and fly them and the prayers of the troops who rely on them.

Money used to maintain the Helos in the 250th could have been used to bring more Hueys and other sidelined aircraft the PAF badly needs back into operation.

Madame President can always use the aircraft of other government agencies like Napocor and the PNOC. She and other officials can also charter local carriers like PAL and Air Philippines for their sorties.

Of course, there are other units the PAF can do without for now to make the best use of limited resources

Right on! Not only her air assets, but even the PSG! They have light armored vehicles which would be better of with the marines or the army! Most of our advance armaments are with them, and the best troops too!

I'm not saying that the government should severely downsize the PSG and the 250th, but they should at least take out those assets which are not really needed by them and are more needed by other units.

When you see a government where the presidential bodyguards are much more well equipped than the regular armed forces which protect the people, there is something severely wrong with that government.

Here's some pics of those Puma and Blackhawks:

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/batwentyone/Spe.Msn.html

BTW, I remember that solo VIP Blackhawk crashed with civilian passengers onboard. Is that the same one that was said to be repaired recently? That this mean we now have again 2 flying Blackhawks?



Maybe its better to have these Blackhawks for the SOCOM and the Pumas be left as the VIP transport.

That's what you get when your President enjoys her stay so much she'll make she'll fight to make th emost of her stint and find a way to extend her stay.

Of course such perks are not the only waste of resources of the PAF.

I got this, don't know if updated:

http://www.scramble.nl/ph.htm

Now based on your expertise, what should be taken out? The S-76 was the one transferred to the Malampaya as shown in the other thread. The 2 S-70A-5 we have, 1 is with the 505th SAR and last I've heard the VIP crashed some years ago but lately read that they refurbished 1 of which I don't know which one they are talking about, was it the 505th SAR turned over to the 250th or the VIP blackhawk resurrected?

So we got the 212 and the 412 (how many are those BTW) + 1 (2?) Pumas.

I've just found this:

So this was accomplished with that transfer at Malampaya.

http://www.newsflash.org/2002/07/pe/pe002308.htm

What happened to this one, still no takers? I remember the F28 was refurbished during Erap's time and paid for during her term.

Photo of the F-28-3000

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1572...3D&photo_nr=510

Just saw the lone PAF Blackhawk earlier today coming from the Senate area. Don't know if it was flying together with the black helicopter just a few seconds ahead of it.

The 250th Presidential Air Lift WING 'ought to be down-sized to a Squadron to save money. All the VIP helicopters, Pumas, the S-70A5, Bell 412SP, etc along with the fixed-wing aircraft can be lumped into a single squadron called the 250th...period.

The PAF's 505th Air Rescue WING which is comprised of four different numbered squadrons could also be down-sized into a single unit called the 505th AIR RESCUE SQUADRON and all the SAR helicopters would be divided into flights spread near the most populous regions of the nation. It's a joke to have a Squadron operating just 3 or 4 SAR helicopters.

The 205th Tactical Helicopter WING which presently operates three different numbered squadrons (206th, 207th, and 208th) could also be down-sized into two different squadron and these would be included with the inventory of other squadrons in the PAF's 15th STRIKE WING which already operates at least one squadron of MG-520D Defender attack helicopters.

The 15th STRIKE WING could consist of:

16th Attack Squadron - OV-10M Bronco (24)

17th Attack Squadron - MG-520D Defender (20+)

20th Air Commando Squadron - UH-60A (10)

23rd Tactical Helicopter Squadron - UH-1H Huey (30+)

25th Tactical Helicopter Squadron - UH-1H Huey (30+)

The 901st Weather Reconnaise Squadron could easily be eliminated as it only has one to two Cessna 210G Turbo Centurions used for rain making and diaster reconnaise. This squadron's duties needed to sub-contracted out to a civilian company that would have to bid for the contract.

The 220th HEAVY AIR LIFT WING based at Mactan, Cebu could add the 303rd Reconnaise Squadron to it's inventory of three different existing squadrons being the 221st, 222nd, and 223rd.

In the future, the PAF could re-activate the 5th Tactical Fighter Wing and re-name it the 5th MULTI-ROLE FIGHTER WING equipped with just three different squadrons such as the 6th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 7th Tactical Fighter Squadron and the 105th Combat Jet Trainer Squadron.

The overall goal would be to reduce the number of squadrons in the current Philipppine Air Force inventory down to well-under 20 squadrons total, if possible.

And at the same time, reduce the wide variety of different individual aircraft types to around Sixteen total by being extremely selective in procuring only aircraft that pack ALOT of versatility and multi-role capabilities into a single airframe.

For instance, in the past the PAF operated no less than TEN different helicopter types. In the future they need no more than a maximum of Six and ideally they do so with only 4 differnet types.

AH-1F COBRA - Gunship Escort/Heavy Attack

MG-520D DEFENDER - Combat Scout/Primary Helicopter Trainer

Bell HUEY II - Assault Troop Lift/Medivac

UH-60A BLACKHAWK - Special Forces Support

AS-332L2 SUPER PUMA - Presidential Air Lift

Bell 412SP - Search & Rescue/VIP

Too much of anything is unhealthy. SO IS TOO MUCH DOWNSIZING!

The PAW should remain as a wing. They should foucs on enhancing maintenance and handling emergencies affecting the President and even keep a company of SOW commandos on standby for rescue or security during emergencies.

I agree on selling the plane though because it's old and the President needs a MUCH SAFER PLANE.

The PAW should keep a ready pool of choppers and at least a single fixed-wing aircraft the size of the current Fokker to provide a "ready", safe and secure air transportation at any time.

Security and safety should be our utmost concern in keeping the "Presidential" Airlift Wing.

i do not know if my suggestion would work or not but i am thinking of this while browsing at this thread.

i suggest that we "pull out" the 250th PAW from the PAF and instead convert it into a specialized unit under the Office of the President with PAF pilots flying the aircraft on the unit's behalf. by "pulling out" the 250 from the PAF, the portion of the PAF budget earmarked for the operation and maintenance of the VIP aircraft would be instead diverted into the more pressing needs of the Air Force (e.g. upgrade program of Broncos, Defenders and Hueys, MRF acquisition, etc.). budget for the 250 will instead come directly from the Office of the President, with PAF only concerned about the salaries of the Air Force pilots flying the VIP aircraft on behalf of the VIP transport unit of the Office of the President.

if we are to "pull out" the 250 from the PAF, the VIP aircraft would start carrying civilian serial numbers registered under the Office of the President of the Republic of the Philippines instead of the regular PAF serial numbers.


what do you guys think of that?


p.s.: here's my "ideal" 250th PAW:

- one Airbus A319CJ VIP aircraft (the Boeing 737 Business Jet and the Embraer ERJ-170 are good alternatives)
- one refurbished Fokker F-27 or Fokker 50 or VIP version of the C-212 Aviocar
- one Bombardier Challenger 604
- one Beech King Air 350 turboprop jet or Metro III business jet
- four Bell 412EP VIP helicopters

Not a bad idea. Though lookingh at it from another angle, it can still perform at the same level of efficiency as what you've envisioned with the way it is now.

I believe that if budget allocation is the problem, then why not just give it more of that?

Why transfer it to another entity when you can get the same added fund by just asking whoever decides on that money?

Im not against pulling it out from PAF though. My point is, why do that when you can get the same goal by asking those who decide on these funds?

I think of it as a much better option, actually.

The Office of the President is the best funded line agency in the Executive branch. It is in a better position to finance the upkeep of VIP aircraft.

The PAF also deserves a break since it could use more money to keep its 120 aircraft flying especially Light Utility Helos and CAS aircraft which it badly needs.

My concept also like is this,that they should give up the "250th Presidential Airlift Wing" instead give them a new designation of "250th Mediumlift and Composite Wing". They must give up the current units under the PAW and transferd them to other air wings.

Predator UAV's(transfer it to 710th Special Operation Wing)
S-70,S-76(505th SAR)
Bell-212,Bell-412SP,(New Helicopter Squadron under the 250th)
Fokker-28-3000(sell)
and SA 330L(this might retain under the office of the president)

Office of the President-new composition of aircraft and helo's

1 Airbus A320 Presdential Plane
1 NH 90/(Puma will retain)Presidential Helicopter
1 Fokker F-27 (Civilian leased)
2-4 Bell 412 (Civilian Leased)

250th Mediumlift and Composite Wing

Give life to the disbanded old tactical wing
8 "New MRF"?/interim fighter

New Mediumlift Squadron
2/2 CN-235,CN-235 Maritime Patrol Version
4 CN-212 Aviocar

New Tactical Helicopter Squadron
6 Bell 412SP/212
12 UH-1H

New Attack Helicopter Squadron
6 AH-1F

Actually, the VIP S-76 is still very much alive and is still flying. It did not crash. What you may be referring to is the S-70, one of which did crash.

If ever the the VIP-Air Limousine Service role and the fiscal responsibilities entailed are transferred to a body under the direct control of the Office of the President, here's a better thing to do with the 250th:

Convert it into a special composite unit. The aircraft to be assigned would comprise a small flight of both rotary wing and fixed wing CAS aircraft like MG520s, OV10s or SF260Ps.

They will be paired up with a squadron of 710th SPOW shooters. Half of whom would be fielded as Combat Controllers and FACs to provide precision air-ground coordination. The other half would be dedicated shooters who can also be fielded for SAR and recon.

What you have would be an Air commando unit

Hey that was what I've said.

Found this nice shot of one of the Pumas while in service:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Puma_Subic.JPEG

Some action shots of the Bell 412s

http://www.paf.mil.ph/HQ/pio/photos%20arch...ebruary2006.htm

nice SHOT!

Natural of coarse PSG have a nice equipment and Chopper in their disposal, because they are guarding the PRESIDENT KUNO. :armycheers:

Question why the American Marines does not hitch the ride PAF huey, instead the PSG helicopter? baka madale sila siguro.

:fire:

I was also visited some classmates in the 205th Chopper Squadron.... they have only one chopper flying. the 207th has 3.

and majority of the choppers are on med-evacs.

we have 27 chopper pilots and only 1 chopper...

The presidential chopper has a whopping maintenance to feed 3,000 families per month.

The 250th PAW is utilizing (most of the time) chartered planes. (ironic). but the choppers are ok.

The Airbus belongs to PAL.... Also used for commercial purposes.


:sniper:

JOLO, Philippines (June 9, 2006) - The President of the Philippines Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo exits a helicopter onto the flight deck of U.S. Naval hospital ship USNS Mercy (T-AH 19) during the ship's last day of humanitarian assistance work at the southern Philippine island. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer’s Mate 3rd Class Timothy F. Sosa

When Luli Arroyo & Friends go surfing they always use a Bell 412. :brrt:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadl...ticle_id=104710

Enrile, Lacson tangle over 2 new Palace choppers


By Gil C. Cabacungan Jr.
Inquirer
Last updated 06:07am (Mla time) 12/04/2007


MANILA, Philippines -- President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo is either too tired or scared to ride in old choppers because her office bought, not one, but two new Bell helicopters at P634 million each, so she could island-hop in style and comfort.

Sen. Panfilo Lacson questioned the “frivolous” purchase of the two helicopters which he said accounted for nearly 15 percent of the Philippine Air Force’s P8.2-billion budget for 2008.

“It’s worse than Erap’s kitchen or Erap’s yacht,” Lacson said, referring to the lavish renovation of the Malacañang kitchen and the presidential boat during the Joseph Estrada administration.

The helicopter purchase surfaced during deliberations on the 2008 budget in the Senate.

“At a time when projected gross borrowings would reach P346 billion in 2008 and with a shortfall of P40 billion in tax collections as of September, wouldn’t it be unconscionable to buy two helicopters costing P634 million each?” Lacson queried Sen. Juan Ponce Enrile, chair of the Senate committee on finance, who was tasked to defend the 2008 budget in behalf of the Arroyo administration.

“When it concerns the safety of the Chief Executive, I’m not ready to say it’s unconscionable,” replied Enrile.

“Couldn’t the President share one helicopter with the First Gentleman?” asked Lacson, to which Enrile replied: “One would be overused.”

Lacson could not believe how Ms Arroyo could acquire two brand new helicopters while the Air Force has to make do with hand-me-downs from Washington.

In June, the PAF got 10 used Vietnam War-era UH-1H choppers or Hueys for the government’s counterinsurgency operations, part of the military hardware promised by US President George W. Bush during his Manila visit in 2003.

The PAF has 40 helicopters, most of which are second-hand and were donated by the United States

WTF! Malacanang deserves/needs NEW choppers? What about the Men in the field? do they deserve less? They do the Fighting and Dying while she hops around together with her SOB of a husband! What would happen if the MILF accidentally shoots it down with their rumored Estrella MANPADS?

There's nothing wrong with the purchase.

It's the safety of the highest official of the land that we are talking here.

Nonetheless, the troops need their choppers too.

SO BUY THESE SOLDIERS THE THINGS THEY NEED AS WELL... IN ORDER FOR THEM TO HAVE THE CAPACITY TO FULFILL THE PRESIDENT'S ORDERS.

First the junket with PGMA when she went abroad (again) for a meet. Now this. And they still wonder why the likes of Trillanes is clamoring for her to step down.

The president indeed deserves the best but shouldn't she also learn to tighten her belt? If the PN gets only a lousy training helicopter so should she. Hindi bale sana kung Cobra o Hind na lang binili niya that way kapag hindi niya gamit magamit naman ng men on the field. Yun luxury chopper hindi naman pwede sakyan ng ordinary troopers unless its stripped of its extras.

Malay nyo naman at the end bumili ng mas maganda kaysa sa Z9 ang AFP ... until now nga walang malinaw kung ano talaga bibilhin ... malay natin irelease na yung P.O. para sa Barako ... malay nyo ... baka nauna lang yung sa kanya.

Oh well she is indeed the highest official of the land and she deserve a top shape vehicle ... kahit saan ka naman bansa magpunta... nasa top officials ang pinaka-maganda ... at palagi silang priority.

Mas tragic naman kung madisgrasya si Arroyo , tapos yung susunod na pangulo, tapos yung susunod manghihiram na lang kasi wala na Presidential helicopter :banana:

I think there's nothing wrong with the purchase as long as the transaction was clean (translation: no overpricing and kickbacks)

The head of state do need a reliable and presentable mode of transport befitting her/his status.

It would not look good on us if our president and commander in chief hop across the country on board a dilapidated and obsolete helicopter.

what is it a 412SP?

BTW dont you guys think that this should be in the air force thread?

These could have been the replacements for the 2 Pumas that were sold.

i agree. :thumb:

its ok she's the president, and the next president will benefit from it anyway. whoever the president is, he or she is the commander of chief of our nation, so she deserve to have the best aircraft possible that they could use.

but just dont forget our ordinary soldiers and the whole AFP modernization or else... nasan na ba kasi yung best sniepr natin? :sniper:

I do know that they need 2 presidential choppers one to be used by the President and the other either will act as a back-up chopper or will be used by the Vice President. The president and the VP cannot be in the same chopper in a worse scenario that if AF-1 crashes, the VP won't be hur.

However, I don't understand they why purchased P1.2 Billion in helos when the money should be better spent elsewhere.

To illustrate my point, let me ask,

With P1.2 Billion:

- How many previously-owned Bell UH-1H Huey for use as LUHs/Medevac can be bought?

- How many mothballed UH-1H helos, SF-260Ps, OV-10s, C-130s, AS-211s or even F-5As can be brought back to service?

- How many MG-520s can be upgraded with FLIR units and M-134 7.62mm Vulcan Pods?

- How many FACs for the 710th SpOW can be trained and equipped with GPS transceivers and decent radios?

-How many soldiers wounded in combat can undergo physical therapy and livelihood training?

- How many M4A1/CAR-15 carbines for the combined requirements of the AFP and PNP will that buy?

- How many classrooms can be built?

- How many coconut farmers can be subsidized?

-Can shoulder the tuition, miscellaneous fees and allowances of how many Government scholars?

The only thing I know is that this would make all members of both Houses of Congress, Governors and Cabinet Secretaries happy if you split that amount as cash gifts

Well thats a good point. They could have just upgraded and modified 2 of our helicopters for presidential use.

at least with this, you now know where the priorities of this regime are. they would tell you to tighten your belts and make do with what you have (e.g. Vietnam War-era UH-1H Hueys that crash after only a few uses; S-211s that are overused because there are NO MRFs and MPAs) but they will be something brand-new for their PERSONAL USE. :demon:

right

Fellows,


The president's safety means a lot to any country.

Her death due to accident will be a shameful story in the eyes of the world community.

The effect of the president's death in the eyes fo the world community is much worse that an Army forward base getting overun by rebels and all men are executed.

As for the expense, the cost of securing our president has no price tag. In fact, the chopper she bought is not a top of the line model.

Do you want our president to suffer how our foremost scientist, Dr. Reynaldo Punungbayan, lost his precious life?

Think about it.

As for the "why not just use the money to buy other things", the solution is to provide the needed fund for this and not by stealing the allocation for one just to pacify the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_412

It's looks like the current model of Hueys the PAW is using. :dunno:

I'd rather get a biger one like the chopper Pres. Bush uses.