http://www.hueybravo.net/images/marines/AAGun3.jpg

I saw one of these going out of the marine compound on my way to Manila Naval Hospital where i was assigned for a 3 day duty as a student nurse...

anyone knew where they heading?? :dunno:

that was about 0800H 20 Jan 2006 and it was wit a convoy of V-150, MMPV with 106mm RR Gun and M-35 with twin 50's on its way to HPN, Roxas Blvd. Sure you also saw this morning the LVTH6 leave the gate for blocking position during General Quarters of Marine Barracks Manila. We noticed the nursing students in white outside east wing Manila Naval Station Hospital watching the evolution.

It was obviously part of the red alert raised by the AFP. I think they have downgraded to blue already.

Question. Although the old ack acks are still functional what are they fielding them for? Kung prop plane mahirap na ayon sa reports to down with ack acks what more kung jet. If helicopters mas ok pa invest in air mines rather than ack acks of the manual type. Might be better if we invest instead on a mobile turreted anti-air weapon with guns and missiles. Pwede pa mag dual role against infantry and light armor. Harder to protect the operators with such large guns unless mga convicts na gagawin penal battalion like the Soviets.

yah i saw the whole mobilization...i thought a coup has finally arisen at the time were inside the fort.. geee..thought im going to witnessed some hot action... :drunk:

unguided weapons/projectiles when applied in mass still is a formidable AA defence. When fired they are not susceptilble to counter measures they just go where they are pointed. heat seeking missles are countered technically by flares tactically by the plane going to the higher heat source as the sun and banking at the right time. Radar by chaffing and so on.... In the vietnam war the russian 30mm and 12.7mm AA guns accounted for 80% of downed US aircraft that included F-100s, F102s, F-4s, A-4s etc etc.... If u are a pilot try piercing through a well directed "wall of steel" of 3inch 50s, 40mm, 20mm and cal 50 guns aimed at the flight of attack. The vietnamese used this guns to protect the SAM batteries and ended up by accounting the bulk of the kills. Its EASY to invest in high tech gadgets if you have the money but if you dont then make the best in what you have or fight the enemy Mig 25s with M-16s. The 40mm bofors L60/70 series is a widely used naval weapon system still in manufacture and easily upgradable provided you have the money.

Sir mblt6, I agree that these old ack acks still have their uses. Even the Soviets learned the hard way when the strictly missile approach advice was first used by the North Vietnamese. The Americans could get past the missile threats by flying low or very high. That's when the use of massed AA guns proved their worth.

But my point is these large AA guns are hard to deploy and difficult to protect. And who would be operating these when the time comes? Wouldn't it be better to invest first on R&D and some small purchases of MANPADs at this point. We could hope to develop a compact yet powerful AA following the principles of the Israeli hyper velocity guns. This way the AA unit is small and could be deployed faster and protected better (as well as to insure the operators' survival). And with portable SAMs even of the SA-7 or Redeye (which I'm sure we both have from my sources) fielded to a lot of personnel we could make it tougher on the enemy as what the Arabs did to the Israelis during the earlier wars. From my view, the large AA guns are like those old Soviet towed anti-tank artillery where the operators' shout out "goodbye to you, motherland" as it was a suicide piece - well it did stop the Nazi attacks.

If we are going to field these old AAs, shouldn't they be equipped with their own drive system instead of being towed? That way they could shoot and scoot somehow. Even with a towing vehicle nearby what if the aggressor has SpecOps or collaborators nearby to disable the towing vehicle. We should make it at least harder for the enemy to neutralize our assets. Including the provision of NBC gear for the operators.

My suggestion to the AA approach would be to indeed start fielding a small number of these available assets and start serious training with them. To insure continued training funds must be allocated to manufacture effective ammunition for it locally. And to complement these AA guns would be to revive our Bong-Bong 1 tactical rocket and turn it into a serious SAM. Let's see what seeker head we can mate it with for now in our SAM inventory. Or even field along those old Sidewinders as SAMs. Then invest more in R&D to better protect ourselves instead of buying hardware abroad. This way not only do we generate jobs and avoid the brain drain but also improve our defenses which the enemy will have a harder time to find a counter (since they'll have to send spies here). And one good use for these old AA guns in the end is to use them against the pirates or landing attacks by the marines. Or even as artillery pieces (maybe we could mount them on a tracked vehicle and batter the rebels' defenses) - like those old German AA guns that they also use against infantry.

Since were going surplus one idea is to buy those old gun pods from the Viggens. These are the 30mm Oerlikon KCA cannons that is displays extreme velocities and effective range over the usual 30mm cannons. We could mount a pair of these on a home-grown manned or remote turret and slave it to a detection system if need be (or slave these old AA guns to operate remotely).

rqst for manpads forwarded in 1995 with no hope of arriving since the refocus on internal security. We could not wait and this will have to do for now for the Air defence battalion. We intend to approach the problem with the tactical solution in employment of these assets rather than buying all high end gadgets which we have no funds. We know the best equipment and technology available in the market but these cost money. We can also go to a long discussion on military history and lessons learned by other countries on AA employment. But the end state is always where is your money. The rehab of the 40mm guns cost us P70t good enough for the pelican case of 2 stingers.

Hmmm. Does this mean that rehab and modernization is still a low priority? Couldn't we do some back avenues like those "missing" Stingers in Afghanistan. Might be a good idea too to add to lobby to our senators and congressmen to allocate their pork barrels with.

Are these big AA guns like those that I've seen aboard the Negros Occidental? Ones which are clip fed (or looks like clips - I compared it to the Garand)? Is there a mod to upgrade it to a different feed? And was the rehab done with local tech and talent?

http://www.hueybravo.net/images/marines/40mmfiring.wmv

how effective are these anti-aircraft guns of the PMC compared to, let us say, the Vulcan, Rh 202 and the ZU-23? :dunno:

During the Vietnam war there were no smart and GPS guided bomb yet, that is why the US aircraft must fly lower and therefore and easy target for AA guns.

Opinion ko lang iyan ha? i maybe wrong

Actually, the USAF fielded their first gen 'smart' munitions in Vietnam. They were used primarily for destroying targets that had already withstood mass bombing runs, like bridges. Although they were rarely used overall, due to lack of stocks as they were just the initial experimental batches (They just winged it), they served to show the importance of guided munitions. This directly led to the development of all current USAF smart munitions.

I have some questions about the Air Defense Brigade. Would they be deployed as a flak curtain? The ma deuce handling the lowest flyers, the 20s going a little higher, and the 40mm guns engaging targets beyond the reach of the latter. What's the ceiling of the 20mm and the 40mm guns? Do we have quad .50 mounts? Be pretty good in spraying lead at low flying helos and be very good in clearing out rebel infested vegetation in the jungles.

Can't view the wmv file pa. Some codec issues. Anyway, why don't we start copying those old anti-tank rifles of past. Ones with full-auto option. Modded and mounted even on jeeps they'd be good assists or replacements to .50s. Or maybe buy more of those 14.7mm machine guns from the Russians too.

Well, I've just watched National Geographic last week and they featured the Bridge on the River Kwai. It showed how the Allied Forces developed a "smart bomb" to hit railways and bridges.

Interesting. How did it work?

History!

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_kwai/about.html

hmmmm... just a thought...WWII technology... AFP old equipments... 10,000 feet altitude... 1 accurate bomb...safe for the troops and cost efficient?

question: what is the TO&E of this air defense brigade (or battalion)? from what unit (army or airforce)? do the PMC has its own air defense battalion? what's its TO&E?

how many 20mm and 40mm in inventory? any upgraded versions? is it towed? vehicle mounted?

please need some insight with this unit... thanks

AA guns

may help...

yes sir knigthshade, thanks, but little info on the said attachement. still my question:

what is the TO&E of the air defense brigade (battalion)? from what unit it is assigned (army or airforce)?

do the PMC has its own air defense battalion? what its TO&E?

what is the current inventory of these 20mm and 40mm AA guns?

please give me infor or insight to this unit...

Mcney,

why do you want to know? give me 20 push-ups ! :pushup: , and I will consider your question. follow the chain of command ! on the double !!! hehehe

hahahaha! yes sir sultanlapulapu... :pushup: given 20 push-ups sir hehehe!

back to reality: just need to know the state of this unit (if it ever existed) + its TO&E, currently i'm doing some researching on all units of our military and 1 thing that i found out with all miltary units (army/marines/airforce/ and even navy): we lack air defence forces or it is not included in all of my researched documents/files... can you help me comrade sultanlapulapu on this?

ok ok at ease private !!! :pushup: , mblt6 , jepot ,manok, et al can answer your question but since siguro busy sila i got one more question then I'll help you, i promise . this is from a professional to a professional hehehe. ano gagawin mo sa mga dokumento na naipon mo tungkol sa Hukbo natin??

hmmmm... good question sir sultanlapulapu! secret sana e pero what the heck! ok, its because i am doing a new proposal for the TO&E of our military (army/navy/marines/airforce) as what i/we call "a lean, mean, efficient, and effective" armed forces - which of course is dictated under the current economical situation of our country. and this is the site were i can submit my proposal for comments and suggestion from you guys, and if there are any deviation from your suggestion, i would present this to gov't c/o sir city hunter (he has connection from politicians and military planners), if not, then i don't know, maybe i may use it as references and if ever someone needed this i may share my idea(s)...

... have i answered your querry/question? can you help me know? what can you say soldier?

this is based on MBLT6 comments....... the PMC will have 1 air defense batallion .its equipment by the end of the year will be more or less six or eight 40mm ,six 20mm oerlikon and six(not sure) twin .50 caliber. There may be provision to salvage the 3"/50 guns too later..... at least two marine V-150s have free-swinging .50 rear cupola mounted .50 calibers that can be used for ack-ack.
the Malacanang have their air defense group most likely revolving around Mistral SAMs and 25mm guns on the AIFV and some SIMBAs
The PAF air force has a planned air defense batallion but i do not know if it has been filled up, probably only .50 caliber guns and just a guess salvaged 20mm aircraft cannons.

So thats a total of one existing marines air defense batallion , a presidential air defense group and 1 planned air defense batallion(air force). The Army has supposedly 1 air defense batallion and other air defense units but info is classified. no info from the army

other posters may fill you more on this.

Can you share with us your research when you are done?

yes, sir sultanlapulapu, i will gladly share my research and proposed TO&E for our armed forces once i finished it (i will post it in this site as soon as possible)...

thanks for the additional info sir, if ever you have additional info on this unit(s) please share it to me... (do malacanang /PSG have mistral SAMs? can you please verify sir, i know it is as effective as those new russian SAMs, correct me if i'm wrong)

again, thank you!

i was just curious though. The PMC had 2 wheeled 40mm Bofors guns. How effective are they against enemy jets?

Let's put it this way. If we had more than two, they'd be less useless.

Maybe, if we upgrade the proximity fuses, mount it on a tracked vehicle (or someting that does not rock as bad as that wheeled platform on suspension, when on recoil), or hook it up to a laptop for fire control, it will have a prayer of hittin' somethin'. If you remember baghdad during Desert Shield, the Iraqis had loads of more advanced AA guns, like the ZSUs, but had little chance of success. SAMs fared a little better.

:lollol:

There is an advantage, though. An enemy anti-radiation missile or Shrike missile would not have a prayer of finding our gun, too. :banana:

But I still don't get it.. :armyredface: say these guns can be of little help in combatting enemy aircrafts from the ground, how are the crews of these guns be trained? Do they shoot at drones? puh-leeze

In the hueybravo video of a live test fire, they hit their target. I assume it was a succss because everyone was clapping. the target was a mountain. :rollinlol:

patay tayo dyan.... :armycheers:

I presume they were clapping because the rounds aren't duds. :armywink:

small arms fire would likely have a better chance against low flying aircraft., because of it's abundance.

did you see the movie "flight of the intruder" ? a lone sniper tagged the pilot in that vietnam war film. :bow:

btw, the americans still use these guns on their AC-130h Spectres and/or AC-130U spooky, along with 20mm vulcans and a 105mm howitzer. maybe, we can install them in our own c-130 with one of our howitzers and designate it AC-130P "mumu" :. :lollol:

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/off...s/ac/ac-130.htm

Well I guess the presence of these guns are merely just for show. If several of these can't be of good help then I guess two can at least show that we have an anti-aircraft capability.
:armyredface:

The 40mm AA would still be useful against, well, renegade Defenders and Hueys and those who like to take over tall buildings.

Read somewhere the Gatling 25mm and the 40mm on the AC-130s will be replaced by two 30mm.

The presence of these obsolete ground to air weapons are purely for nostalgia. As the poster before me, Judd has stated, these are only for show.

They could still be effective against helos :rifle:

Do those 40mm rounds have greater range than 2.75in rockets that our MD520s carry?