what do most of you think about the modern day PRC?
do you guys regard China as a threat, as so many americans neo-cons do?
in your view, what are the PRC's policies toward the Phillipines? & what do you like and/or dislike about it?
similiarly, what do you think about the US's current policies toward the Phillipines? (first of all, tell me what are the US's policies toward your country? 'cause i have no clue).

i hope to get some productive discussions started, thx for your time. :armycheers:

Of course, I regard China as a threat - especially in the SEA region. Just look at the PRC's expansionist moves in the Spratlys.

Nuff said.

Re: Switik & everyone else who wants to join in:

border/territorial disputes are a common occurance amongst many countries.

in the case of the spratlys, just about every nation involved made provocative & unilateral moves, despite the disputed claims by other parties. for instance, the vietnamese are establishing tourist outposts on islands claimed by others in the SEA, probably including the phillipines; indonesia is unilaterally exploring oil in the southern spratlys, the PRC has expanded its military outposts on islands it currently occupies. there are reports of Filipino navy gun boats firing upon foreign fishing boats in order to enforce its claims in the region.

i don't want to start a flame war here, but do Filipinos think the PRC is more of a threat to the phillipines' claims of sovreignty in the spratlys region because it is perceived to be the strongest, economically & militarily? or is it some other factor that makes it seem more threatening than any other nation; even though other nations have made provocative moves as well?

also, does the PRC's recent efforts to resolve the issue by diplomatic means & her proposal for joint ventures with the Phillipines in the region change any perceptions of the PRC one way or the other? if so, what do you make of this recent development?

Good move for PRC
Caught the US off guard here.

Ok for me as long as you Chinese do not use this as a pretense or cover for sudden occupation of the entire Spratlys.

Three words to consider when treading water with the Chinese:

Careful...careful...careful
:devilwink:

so... from what i gather, the concensus amongst you is that there's a willingness for a cautious engagement with the PRC.

but a previous question remains unanswered: just about everyone in the region has made gains of some kind in the spratelys at the expense of the other parties involved. what makes the PRC more threatening? how do you think the phillipines should deal with the other SEA nations who also claim & occupy parts of these same territories?

but not a lot of gains and incursions compared to the Chinese and since China is the big dog in the region and with a not so palatable record to boot, its just natural for the puppies to feel vulnerable and apprehensive...

wag na lang, traydor ang mga tsekwa, baka magsisi lang tayo sa huli...

Oblivious of the fact that the Chinese strategy unfolds without having to physically invade the Philippines.

- Eroding and destroying the moral fibre of Filipino youth by a frontal assault by flooding the Philippines with shabu. Aba, even our policemen are now shabu users.

- Through their local representative, they have already acquired, to name a few, Philippine Air Lines and Philippine National Bank.

- Through the same agents in the Philippines, they have bankrolled presidential campaigns. Even senatorial campaigns.

Why invade when you can control the economy and destroy the moral fibre of it's youth..

Fry the Philippines in it's own fat.

The Peoples Republic of China OFFICIALLY CLAIMS THE WHOLE SOUTH CHINA SEA AS PART OF HER TERRITORY unlike other claimants! That is the major difference with the PROC and other claimants.

Our claim on the Kalayaan islands is based on the UN Law of the Sea Convention[the archipelagic doctrine].

I don't speak for any goverment organization by the way...

Reference:

PRoC claim:

http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2004/s...seamilitary.htm


The PRC's assertions of sovereignty in the South China Sea rest on historical claims of discovery and occupation. The Chinese case is well documented. Archaeological findings about the Xisha Islands during 770-476 B.C. suggest Chinese fishing expeditions visited the region.(18) References made in Chou Ch'u-fei's Ling-Wai-tai-ta (Information on What Lies Beyond the Passes) during the Sung dynasty (12th century)(19) and in the records of Chinese navigators during the Qing dynasty (18th century) also describe considerable naval activity in the area.(20) Notable problems of authenticity and accuracy exist, however, in describing coastal points as implied references for the Spratly Islands. These problems are compounded by the fundamental question of whether proof of historical title today carries sufficient legal weight to validate acquisition of territory. Modern international law clearly recognizes that mere discovery of some territory is not sufficient to vest in the discoverer valid title of ownership to territory. Rather, discovery only creates inchoate title, which must be perfected by subsequent continuous and effective acts of occupation, generally construed to mean permanent settlement.(21) Evidence of such permanent settlement is not compelling in the case of China's claim to the Spratlys.(22)

Philipine claim:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Spratly_I...Spratly_Islands

A second argument used by the Philippines regarding their geographical claim over the Spratly's is that all the islands claimed by the Philippines lie within their archipelagic baselines, the only claimant who can make such a statement. The 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) stated that a coastal state could claim two hundred nautical miles of jurisdiction beyond its land boundaries. It is perhaps telling that while the Philippines is a signatory to UNCLOS, the PRC and Vietnam are not. The Philippines also argue, under Law of the Sea provisions, that the PRC can not extend its baseline claims to the Spratly's because the PRC is not an archipelagic state. Whether this argument (or any other used by the Philippines) would hold up in court is debatable but possibly moot, as the PRC and Vietnam seem unwilling to legally substantiate their claims and have rejected Philippine challenges to take the dispute to the World Maritime Tribunal in Hamburg.

di na kailingan, di ba buong mundo kalat na ang mga tsekwa

PRC has already made their offensive five years ago. PRC has clearly recognized that the economy shall the battlefield of the future, intermix this with business objectives, PRC becomes a country difficult to control when it controls the trade balances of the region.

Case in point, Janshe motorcycles.

Jianshe is a rebranded yamaha motorbike, where the PRC bought the yamaha production facilities from japan. Jianshe is sold into the Philippines with 36 months credit to the distributor. The distributor in the RP only have to pay for shipping, he can pass the terms to his customers for 36 months, all the distributor has to do is pay for monthly amortization at sub inflation rates on items sold. Meaning, the PRC is lending the manufacturer, who relends it to overseas distributors who relends it to customers, hereby indebting the target country trade positive in favor to the PRC.

Now think about that and transpose that to other products, we could see a trade blackhole in China where it lends and supplies the material demands of the world, hence all of the wealth of this world is slowly funneling to China.

We have seen that in History my friends, UK and the colonies, France and the Colonies, The US and it allies, the USSR and the satellites and now China and the hungry global consumer.

To me, that is a real threat, we do not need another sovereign behemoth. Just imagine the diplomatic angle when everyone owes PRC their motorbikes and cars.

That's why it is the top agenda of the G7 summit. If china does not float its currency, it can unfairly bias the balance of global free trade. Hungry nations will look for a fight, because they have nothing to lose anymore.

The Spratly's? its just an exercise to illicit soveriegn reaction, it is an exercise to quantify the country's capability to play "chicken". It is miniscule compared to the permutations of possible outcomes.

i agree with colddead here one-month stoppage lang ng mga tsekwa kahit lang sa electronic components production sira na ekonomiya sa europe at US

oo nga no - pc ko made in China halos lahat ng components...

China's neighbors, including RP is threatened much about its growing economy.

- It has a very strong and huge market potential for ANY BUSINESS.
- It's people are beginning to be competitive, in terms of cost and quality.
- It has the capability to be with among the world's hi-technology products exporter, from consumer electronics to state-of-the-art war machines.

Much of the US electronic industries are now relocating their factories to China because of lower production cost.

With regard to the security issue, their bullying in the Spratly's has solidified the perception that China is a threat to the ASEAN countries indeed.

Their "TALK AND TAKE" strategy is known to many.

If China wants to improve its relationship with its neighbors, it must give smaller countries like that of RP their chance to develop and strengthen their economy.

China will benefit much if it can be the catalyst for ASEAN commerce, where every participating nation will benefit much from this partnership and have their opportunity to improve their own economy.

The ideal direction for China is to BE THE CATALYST FOR ASEAN TRADE.

If it can succeed in that, China will soon realize that there's much to being the one who has helped the others who are weak ..... than being the bully despite being the one who already have much to share.

But why would China do it? What's in it for them? why help them if you can have them? My take China is heading for the wall, its like seeing japan in the early 30s all over again. One eco embargo and China will go beserk.

China nor any other country can never repeat what Japan tried to do in the 1940s.

The UN shall always be there to remind everyone that gone are the days when you can just conquer any nation whenever it pleases you. Remember the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait?

I believe China just wanted to get a stronger hold of the vast oil and gas reserves lying underneath the Spratly's. The reefs and shoals within and the sorrounding waters are rich in marine resources. Even the claim that the structures were only meant to provide shelter to the Chinese fishermen plying that route proves that it is a strategic base for supporting industries based on marine resource consumption.

China's requirement is growing and it has to do something to support that requirement.

China is even trying to get back Taiwan like what it did with Hong Kong because these two have already grown economically and getting these pots of gold will speed up China's emergence as an economic power not just in Asia but in a global scope.

This debatable but I will let you get away with it for now. There surely are parallels in history. If China expands economically without expanding its geopolitical strength, it will be the first geopolitical anomaly.

Case in point, Singapore's security strengths grew as its economy. And singapore is a small country which started with meager resources. It may not have the capability to maintain a long term sustained war but it does have good first strike punch. Now transpose that to China, its patriotic sense and its cultural context.

China's national security is key to its eco security and China's national security is the regional and global national insecurity. Its just the facts.

I agree with that.

Nonetheless, no matter how insecure China is, it cannot just expand its geopolitical strength without being subjected to the wrath of UN's resolutions for that action.

That's why they are doing all they can to the point of bullying its neighbors just to get the Spratly's because setting the Chinese presence on the Spratly's soil will strengthen and even accomplish their goal of expanding their geopolitical strength.

But as you can see, even that of the Spratly's will not be that easy for China to fulfill.

I for one doesnt think that China gives a rat's ass about any UN resolutions it may incur as a result of any "adventures" they may undertake in the future (coz by that time, they will be strong enough to resist). The UN cannot enforce their petty resolutions. Countries choose to enforce them. The US, Japan and Russia will enforce them as soon as they get any resolution favourable to them, though. And that's why China is not going the way of Japan circa 1940 (shouldn't we say circa 1920's). As a result, China will bide its time, strengthen its economic and political power, test the waters every so often and try to get away with as much as it can with the littlest hassle. But they know their time is coming, oh yes they know.. just like they always wanted, just like they always believed they're destined for.

The way China's going to do it? Its all about the benjamins....


An alliance with the strong is never to be trusted - Phaedrus

:agree:

What they did in the Spartly's, wherein President Ramos succumbed to their bullying, their arrogance towards the Taiwanese republic, their intrusions into Japan's own territory are proof of their unwavering obsession to rule this part of the world. A prelude to ruling the globe actually.

If their sole purpose is just to be on top of the line of economic giants, then venturing further east or somewhere else to get that goal is a manifestation of their weakness or incapability.

Imagine? Israel, UK, Germany, France, Italy and even Japan are so small compared to the land mass of China but they are among the best industrialized countries in the world?

To prosper economically doesn't require you to get more lands to do that.

All you need is know how you can make it with what you have.

ano naman ang magawa ni ramos?

may laban ba tayo? nakuu gumising ka nga :demon:

Look, try to see the advantage of our troops during that time.

Bautista AB is just minutes away. Marine reinforcement is available.

We even have SWAGS. In fact the SWAGS demolished the concrete markers that the Chinese put up around that shoal to strengthen their claim on that one.

The structures then weren't yet fortified as how it looks now. If the SWAGs were able to demolished those markers then why have they not demolished the structure also?

There were Chinese frigates but China would be stupid if they send them any closer than that.

In fact, the Chinese ships halted when PAF jets came soaring in.

The Chinese art of war are often imbedded with psychological tactics.

Nonetheless, we know they can go beyond that if they knew they have the advantage.

But come to think of it, China didn't have an aircraft carrier then. It would be stupid for China to send a long range heavy bomber to reiterate their claim. That action will definitely get the US and the UN come rushing in to join the fray. WE HAVE THE ADVANTAGE THAT TIME ACTUALLY.

See now?

We could have saved the Scarborough shoal if they knew how to play China's game.

Nonetheless, that's just how i see things.

I maybe wrong.

But the US may not do anything. You know why? Because China has nuclear weapons, all it has to do is to threaten the US with a nuclear strike, the US citizens will then start rioting like what happened in Los Angeles in 1992, then the US will be forced to give in to China's demands because it just cannot tolerate the possibility of being hit with nuclear weapons, Vietnam showed that, that Americans cannot take casualties, kill a few thousand of them and they will start to waver and will be looking for an easy way out, remember, it was not the US military that lost the Vietnam war, it was the media and the leftist student protesters, just don't push them too far like what Japan did in 1941 when it bombed Pearl Harbor.

It is not far from reality, i can agree.

But then again, China wont dare threaten the US with nukes that easy.

China aint that tough actually. Even Japan invaded them during WW2.

Even its commercial rocket launching systems arent that excellent yet. Remember when the Chinese rocket failed to reach the targetted point that resulted to releasing the payload, the Philippine satellite "Agila 1", before they could reach the desired position?

That technical anomally caused the satellite to consume more fuel than it should have, which lessened its lifespan.

Why they succeeded in stealing the Scarborough shoal was a result of misjudgement on the part of our government.

The govt then forgot how importatnt external defense is.

Come to think of it, that didnt happen even during the time of Marcos. It even happened during the stint of a president who happened to be a West Point-trained military general.

Isn't that ironic?

Let me add this.

Even if the reason why the AFP opted to give the Chinese bulshits... i mean bullies...the space to satisfy its bullying is to prevent a full-blown war, ..

... Pres. Ramos was still culpable.

Why?

He was the former AFP Chief and Defense Secretary. He should know what was going on before the Chinese got there.

Intelligence and surveillance, that is. Mabuti na lang may Maritime Patrol Aircrafts na tayo ngayun.

If he failed to get a hint or eavesdrop on that matter, then that manifested how weak our national defense setup was.

External defense is precisley preventing the outcome of negligence such as what happened there in the Scarborough shoal.

Ramos was already there in the defense dept several decades before the Chinese takeover happened.

Was he just too busy with electioneering or what? :exactly:

Oh well, in fareness to him....let's just get back to where the topic wants us to go. :armyroleyes:

Well actually during the Taiwan presidential election crisis of 1996, the Chinese implicitly threatened the United States by reminding it that it has nuclear weapons when the United States sent its aircraft carriers in order to protect Taiwan from a potential Chinese attack, but as far as I know this did not make the United States back off much, but who knows, maybe next time when the United States is facing a much stronger and more developed China, things may not go so smoothly as far as the US is concerned and it may give in to Chinese nuclear blackmail.

The only way to prevent all of this is to weaken or hasten china's eco growth. The key move is to devalue their currency. China is defying this. There must be a way to externally force them to devalue it.

ER,


I can agree.

In fact the Chinese considers "taking the right opportunity" thing very well.

The incident in the Spratly's is one example.

But the opportunity they got was not because of we could not confront them. It was because we did not want to confront them.

We had the advatage that time actually. Well, as i see it. I could be wrong still.

BTW, China is continually enhancing its intercontinental ballistic missile technology.

A report said they are focussing on submarine-launched missile technology ..

.. and probably improving the guidance system.

For the US, it is best that they go one step ahead or even two.

The seemingly shelved star-wars concept is one. That concept even included land-based angti-missile systems. (laser-technology). Plus a deadly paralyzing first strike capability to complement the defense setup.

If they were able to keep the Stealth fighter technology for a decade then probably they are keeping something better now.

I believe that their bases in Diego Garcia and in Japan are part of that strategy.

These can really obliterate China while their missile defense system and their very lethal blue-water Navy will take care of the Chinese subs and surface ships.

China will be stupid if it will confront the US like that and risk losing its opportunity of becoming a top world economic power.

The problem here, Fish is that they seem to know this.

They know what overheating meant to them.

They even know the importance of low-cost production.

Well, what can we expect from one of the world's best entreprenuers?

The problem here is that western compnaies are propelling China's economy.

The sad thing though is that i can see that most of Chinese workers there are underpaid and living below their measure of the poverty line.

The best thing here is to compel the western companies not take precaution in closing deals with their Chinese partners.

Our part?

We just have to do our part in ridding corruption and strengthen our defenses.

True, thats what I hate about bush. He should be worried about China erasing their way of life than Al Qaeda. Not that Al Qaeda is not a threat, its much more that China will potentially do more damage than Al Qaeda.

Appeasing China is their way of managing this, its like the brits appeasing Hitler in the mid 30s.

So, it's more like the "history repeats itself" thing?

But the sad fact again is this;

Europe (including RUSSIA), where most of the investors come from, and the US will not be affected if in case China eventually ventures out to bully its neighbors again.

These investors and even their government wouldnt care whatever China would do then.

What matters most to them is how much money they can earn from dealing with China.

Why will they anyway care if China turns this part of the region the next Iraq or Afghanistan when they are in fact a thousand miles away from us?

There is only one reason why China's economy has catapulted to such a degree that became an envy to the US. It is the fact that the world now learned to buy their cheap products. Why cheap ? Because of cheap labor, and mostly of these are done in prison camps by prisoners.

It's quite intriguing why the modern world has accepted this kind of economic strategy from a society where human rights never exist, and even on the verge of playing a vital role in the WTO. Big US and European Companies have established their base in China for the above reasons. ''LEVI STRAUSS & CO ", is suppose to be a famous US manufacturer of rugged jeans (pants) etc. but, mostly of their products are made in China, This is one example.

It is for these reason why mainland China has not instituted drastic action against it's renegade province of Taiwan, so as not to irritate the US and the European countries to protect it's economic interests and to presrve the ongoing economic harmony with the democratic world.

Lately the People's Congress of China has appropriated $30 billion for the military budget, and this has raised concerns from the US government. It has been speculated that this is a prelude to their drastic action against their renegade province Taiwan.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

These were taken during the recent Sino-Russian joint exercises.

All Chinese made. But still, menacing, gives you the goosebumps while waiting for exclusively U.S. made equipments which we wouldn't know which would come first. :whogives:

saver111: yeah... but... just a thought. i don't know if you will agree with me or not. will it be "wise" for the Philippines to buy Chinese since the Americans seem to be "unreliable" as of the moment.

just look at the Thais. some of their equipment are Chinese made and yet, they are able to use them quite efficiently despite doubts on the quality of Chinese-made weapons and equipment.

Israeli, I'm not advocating that we go Chinese, what I'm saying is why wait for U.S. made equipments if we could get from other sources that could at least "deter" these threat using "unreliable" Chinese technology, but still is giving us sleepless nights. Why can't our leaders have that sleepless nights themselves? :headbang: