Gents, do you think it would have made a big difference if the US issued a similar decree to order all Filipino-American troops not to step backwards and fight?

I'm honestly impressed with the fight put up by the Soviet Union that turned the military tide against Nazi Germany. The decisive military leadership provided by Stalin was personified by his Decree 227 of July 1942, to the Red Army troops fighting in Stalingrad. The order - "Not One Step Backwards" - galvanised the Soviet forces and finally brought the German war machine to a grinding halt. The battles of Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad will forever be engraved in world history.

The Soviets only had poorly trained conscripts since their regular army was stationed and reserved for the defense of Moscow. I think our Filipino troops are only slightly different with those conscripts so given the order, I believe they would fight back and repel the Japanese by 1943.

Indonesia was able to repel the Japanese without any foreign aid, what more with our troops?

What do you guys think?

Hitler's own no-retreat orders resulted in disaster for the German Army. Instead of being able to regroup, ground commanders were held in place with disastrous results.

As career officers on Timawa always say: "Retreats do not always mean defeat or cowardice. Attacks do not always mean courage. Its all about using your coconut."

Just to give a historical perspective:
During WW2 Indonesia was then known as The Dutch East Indies. They were occupied by the Japanese from 1942-1945. It was only in 1945 that the Japanese were driven out (well surrendered to the Allies).

But it's our home court advantage, diba?

Stalin caused heavy casualties because he stubbornly refused to believe Sorge, his spy in Japan who seduced the German ambassador's wife that the Germans will invade Russia. He thought that Sorge was sowing disinformation. Sorge later then turned out to be genuine. He also almost completely annihilated the Cambridge spies (Philby, Blunt, Burgess, Maclean) because of his paranoia. He murdered and tortured millions of Russians and caused famine and starvation in Ukraine. Well anyway, he got lucky with that order because it turned the tide in their favour. But imagine if he believed the warnings of Sorge.

You negate whatever advantage you have if expend your forces on a foolhardy "never retreat" strategy. No sensible commander would take such an order seriously.

Remember the words of Chairman Mao:

"The enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy camps, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats we pursue."

THAT is eventually how modern, asymmetrical wars are won.

The AFP will never be able to match an invading force in head-to-head combat. We also do not have the population-size of the Soviets. We must act accordingly.

Such sacrifices are also not part of the Filipino make-up. Which is why, until now, there are no Filipino suicide bombers.

Ya, sir adroth. It's all written in Sun Tzu's Art of War and another book The Tao of Deception.

It would have made no difference. Once the japs were on the major roads, it was a simple competition of time and motion. The reason for the retreat was to consolidate forces nearer to supply lines. Mac could have been creative by moving forward supplies and men to engaged units and have japs pinned on the beachheads but he was also nervous about possible envelopment as flanking amphibous opns is the invader's initiative. War Plan Orange chose bataan for its terrain and proximity to supply depots ringing manila. Bataan is a peninsula thus if you have control on its roads and highways, it is easier to repel flanking amphibous opns (which actually happened and was repelled sucessfully) because you can shift forces faster than the attackers can dismount forces. A jap general frontal attack on the bataan lines were unsuccessful it was supplies that wore them down and led to its fall.

"Man does not enter battle to fight, but for victory. He does everything to avoid the first and obtain the second."- Colonel Ardant du Picq, French Army, author, Battle Studies. MacArthur returned and conquered.

Apparently, Herr Colonel/Oberst Indigo hasn't been brushing up on history.

Indonesia was known as the Dutch East Indies then, since Holland/The Dutch/The Netherlands had taken the archipelago as a colonial posession since the 1600s. Under Dutch rule, Jakarta was known as Batavia.

If you read your World War II history, after the fall of Malaya and Singapore, Hong Kong and Manila, most of the remaining British and American forces (not including Gen.MacArthur's land forces in Bataan and Corregidor) retreated to the Dutch East Indies, since Holland was another one of the Allied partners during World War II.

This included the US Asiatic fleet including the cruisers Houston, Marblehead and Boise as well as 15 WWI-era four-piper destroyers. The British/Commonwealth survivors of the earlier campaigns included the cruisers HMS Exeter, HMAS Perth (Australian) and several destroyers. The Dutch had their own cruisers De Ruyter, Java, and several old destroyers as well. Most of this combined Allied fleet (codenamed the ABDA Force) was ANNIHILATED by the Japanese fleet in the Battle of the Java Sea of Feb.-March 1942.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/btl_jav.htm

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/

After the ABDA force was destroyed, most of the Allied forces in the East Indies were doomed. The garrison Army of native conscripts with a core of Dutch regulars was only able to give little resistance before Batavia fell in March. The Japanese advanced so fast that by late March, Japanese carrier-borne aircraft were bombing the port of Darwin in Australia and Japanese carrier groups even went as far as Ceylon, where they forced the retreat of a British carrier group.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/btl_rio.htm

The Japanese were even bold enough to capture East Timor, which was the territorial posession of Portugal, which was neutral in World War II.

It would not be until 1945 that the Dutch East Indies were liberated from the Japanese, after token Australian landings in Borneo and American landings in Biak in Eastern New Guinea.

If you are referring to anyone that the Indonesians DID repel, it was not the Japanese, but the DUTCH.

Soon after the Japanese surrender in August-September 1945, the Japanese commanding General of all the remaining Japanese air, naval and land forces in the Dutch East Indies brought in some known pro-Indonesian separtists, including the future General and future President Sukarno. They informed these local leaders that the Allied return was imminent; Sukarno and the other leaders soon declared the independence of the new Republic of Indonesia.

During World War II, many Indonesians had been drafted as so-called "Auxiliary units" or "Giyugun/Heiho" units by the Japanese for functions such as guarding Allied Prisoner of War camps. These men, though wearing Japanese uniforms during the War, would later become the core of Sukarno's revolutionary forces during the Indonesian War of Independence.

Many of these Indonesian rebel forces would use captured Japanese equipment- including leftover Japanese aircraft and firearms.

When the first Dutch forces returned, with the help of British and Australian naval and land forces, they would encounter stiff resistance from these Indonesian rebels, many of whom had been armed from Japanese stocks.

Indigo- I think I've said enough- if you want to find out more about the Indonesian War for Independence look at these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_War_of_Independence

examples of leftover Japanese aircraft in Indonesian service

like this ex-Japanese Army Air Force Ki-43 "Oscar" in Indonesian markings



http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jinforeign.htm

Therefore, next time- Herr Oberst Indigo, DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE making such grand ASSUMPTIONS as the one you stated above.

:headbang: Young Pinoys' general apathy/disinterest in history- especially military history- is ANNOYING.

Regards,

Hellboy!!!

Ah, my bad about the Indonesia part. :pushup: So ok, let me edit my orignial post about it Indonesia repelling the Japanese alone.

Priceless, I'll keep this in mind. It's like "we're not retreating, we're just fighting in a different loacation". I honestly like that quote. :thumb:

Was there never an incident that the Japanese forces in Pinas had experience thinly stretched supply lines?

Ang tinik mo talaga, MSantor. You're a quick witted fellow. You meet Canadian standards with your liberalism while I meet it with my social conservatism. But we fail to meet American standards which is right-wing liberalism and right wing conservatism. That's the reason why we were denied immigrant visas.We're weaklings. We easily succumb to welfare state because we want to be economically and medically secure. Instead of buying private insurance we take use of universal health care. Instead of saving my money for a rainy day, I use it for vices. I should had saved it in for private health insurance in case I get sick. But I don't. That's one reason why I'm banned from all workplaces in Washington and Langley because I succumb to leftism. Probably one reason why Britain coddled me. Labour socialist. Americans would stick to conservatism and right wing liberalism for better or for worse, in sickness or in health. Let's pray for each other MSantor. That because we do not glorify God who wants as to "be innocent sparrows flying droves" they don't know if they'll eat or not. They don't know that God loves them a lot. Economic and health uncertainty implicit in verse. God likes democratic capitalism unrehearse" we'll end up saved on the day of judgment.This poem is my friend David's credo. I do not subscribe to it because he gave me only 6.85 dollars and hour.. God save our souls for not glorifying God, MSantor. Let's pray for each other and all those who are "blind". Dagat dagatang apoy. Pataymali, palakas loob,"Damned Right?" Joma Sison? Honasan is not right-wing. Honasan is a "socialist"!! Wrong label by God-saved neo-Conservative centrist presidents Madame Aquino, Fidel Ramos, Gloria Arroyo Macapagal.
back to the topic.

Stalingrad had no strategic military value to the Soviets. It falling into German hands would not have much effect as other Soviet cities that have fallen before it. Common military doctrine dictates that the Soviets should have let Stalingrad fall into German hands and retreat far into Soviet territory. High attrition rates, over-stretched supply lines and the infamous Russian winter would kill off the Germans as effectively as any Soviet bullet.

What it does have is an enormous political value. What do you think will happen to Stalin if the city that bears his name falls into the hands of a hated enemy? Hence the decree. After that it just became a war of attrition, the side that has more (personnel, materiel, etc.) and that is willing to accept the huge cost in casualties will win. Unfortunately for the Germans, the Soviets had much more than they did.

Your statement makes it sound as if the Filipino (and American) soldiers just gave up after a few months of fighting the Japanese. Far from it, a war of attrition did occur. Though the Filipinos and Americans have the numbers, most are poorly equipped and trained and racked by disease, injury and hunger. Against a highly-motivated force that is better equipped and trained, it was us who cannot sustain the fight culminating in the fall of Bataan on April 1942 and the fall of Corregidor a month later on May.

Though the Philippines did fall in 1942, we did held out much longer than the other nations in the region. Thereby making the Japanese allocate more men, materiel and time than was earlier planned and thus allowing the Allies to regroup and properly defend Australia, which was also part of the Japanese conquest plans.

I hope you gained a better understanding of the sacrifice that our grandfathers did in that period of our history.

Quite funny that you posted this because after watching "Enemy at the Gates" and "Stalingrad", it all sums up. I don't usually see movies as reliable, accurate resources but it all falls down to it.

That's your interpretation but no, I'm asking, not stating, if there would be a big difference if the Fil-Am troops held their ground in Manila and fight while putting into action the Soviet thing: gather up all males, aged 18 and above from Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao and send them all to the front. I did state that...

And this statement won't even give you the slightest clue that shows the Fil-Am soldiers gave up after a few months of fighting the Japanese.

So the Soviet conscripts were well-equiped and well-trained?

They were already racked by disease, injury and hunger in 1941? Because that's the timeline I was actually referring but if so, where?

Thanks for the insight but I've probably read your posts from some WW2 or Philippine history book (And who else hasn't? Except for the Indonesia part, I must confess ignorance) and I guess, but I could be wrong, that you're point is our grandfathers have sacrificed enough that it doesn't give them justice if we question "what if they did this?" or "what if they did that?", right?

I remember Perth and Houston retired quickly to Batavia and was ordered by Admiral Karel Doorman<who went down with his ship> to ignore survivors.

Question to mili. enthusiast. Didn't the Netherlands fell to the Germans already when the IJN ventured to take the Dutch East-Indies? Thus unable to help his East-Indies colony.

Stalin was a brutal dictator, to not follow his orders would result in being shot by firing squad or be sent to Siberia.

Just because that Netherlands was under German occupation doesn't mean that the Dutch government in exile couldn't fight on. The Dutch govt., as well as their constitutional monarch (a queen and her family) had fled to London and thus still controlled all of Holland's/the Netherlands' colonies from there.

The Dutch Navy was pretty substantial for such a small nation, and a sizeable part of this fleet had been deployed to the Dutch East Indies, including at least a single submarine squadron.

Even after the Battle of the Java Sea, the Dutch continued to be a potent ally. Dutch subs continued to operate from both Ceylon and Australia to sink Japanese merchant ships. Free Dutch/Exile Dutch pilots flew among the RAF Foreign volunteer squadrons to defend Britain during the Blitz and beyond, and a the Dutch cruiser Jacob Van Heemskreck even supported an Allied force led by the carrier HMS Illustrious and the battleship HMS Ramillies which captured Vichy-French occupied Madgascar in early 1942 (the Vichy French were pro-Axis, unlike De Gaulle's Free French forces). Dutch navy crews were given new ships by their Allies including escort carriers to help escort Allied Convoys across the Atlantic (this includes the post-war Dutch aircraft carrier Karel Doorman).

Later in the war, a few months after D-day, Allied forces made their initial breakthroughs in the Operation "Market Garden" led by paratroops of the British 1st Airborne and the famed US 82nd and 101st Airborne divisions; Dutch resistance/guerrila fighters aided Allied paratroops by being their guides to the local terrain as well as harassing German troop movements.

Since the Allied forces were also composed of Free Polish, Free Belgians and other exiled fighters of occupied countries, it makes one wonder why MacArthur did not form a Free Filipino contingent of either foot soldiers or fighter pilots to help in his island-hopping campaign back to the Philippines and onward to Japan- perhaps there were not enough expat Pinoys living abroad at the time? Or maybe it was probably because the Philippines was still technically a US Commonwealth though we had our President, Manuel Quezon, as well as semi-independent Philippine Army and Air Corps which had been overwhelmed fighting alongside US forces against the Japanese invasion.

Quite funny that you assume that I got those from watching those movies. Though I had seen 'Enemy at the Gates', I have not seen 'Stalingrad' because I have no idea there was one. (But now that you'd mentioned it, I'd look it up in the local library or video store. Could be entertaining.) I have read various books and seen many documentaries about WW2. That particular quote about the political significance of Stalingrad was quoted from a TV documentary that I have watched sometime ago. It may not have been Zhukov who had really said it but at least the movie imparted why Stalin wanted to hold the city. I'd give credit to the movie's researchers for getting the message through.

Yes. The Great 'What If?' Debates. It's easy enough for us to debate about 'what they should have done in 1942' now in the safety and comfort of the year 2007. Maybe if you try to imagine yourself being a soldier in Bataan in April 1942, maybe just maybe, you might get an idea of what it really was like back then and get a better understanding of why they made those decisions.

may i ask what weapons did the filipinos use at that period i think it was a Lee enfield or M1 Or older weapon? all i know is they did trust us to have good arms because they afraid of mutiny by filipinos

During the Bataan & Corregidor campaign, the only troops issued with the new M1 Garand rifle were the Philippine Scouts. These Filipino soldiers were even better equipped than the average regular U.S. Army troops and National Guard units from the states who still used the M1903 Springfield. It can be said that Filipino soldiers were the first to use the Garand into battle.



Typical soldier of the 12th U.S. "Philippine Division" P.S. sporting the 8 round caliber 30 M1 Garand semiautomatic rifle. (photo, courtesy of Buhay na Kasaysayan)

However, the bulk of the USAFFE consisted of the half-trained and poorly equipped Commonwealth Army of the Philippines. These soldiers were issued WW1 surplus British designed P-17 Enfield rifles.



Typical Philippine Army soldier of 1941 and early 1942 in Bataan wearing the coconut fiber "guinit" sun helmet and Philippine Army issued blue denim "dungarees". The rifle is the Model 1917 caliber 30, (British .303 inch), bolt action rifle. Its main malfunction is the relatively weak cartridge extractor which easily breaks, plus its relatively large and heavy size for the average Filipino soldier of the period. The Philippine Commonwealth government had to buy these weapons from the U.S. and these were the only ones cheap enough and available in quantity. (photo, courtesy of Buhay na Kasaysayan).

As soon as MacArthur lost his airpower in the Philippines and the U.S. Navy suffered crippling losses at Pearl Harbor, the Philippines was practically doomed; with or without any order to fight to the last man.

In fact, had MacArthur followed the original War Plan Orange; Bataan & Corregidor might have even held out longer. Instead, much supplies and equipment were lost trying to use the Philippine Army to stop the Japanese at the landing beaches around Lingayen. They should have retreated immediately into Bataan and adequately prepered its defences. But still, defeat would only be delayed a few more months. There just wasn't enough navy to send as a relief force, after what happened at Pearl Harbor; they wouldn't be ready for at least another year.

The original pre-war plan was to hold out in the Bataan peninsula for three months which was estimated by the U.S. War Department to be long enough for reinforcements to arrive from Hawaii and at the same time deny the Japanese use of Manila Bay port facilities. They held out for five months.

The Soviets could retreat all the way back to Siberia if they had to. The USAFFE had nowhere to go except the sea.

The Dutch forces called "KNIL" under General ter Poorten in the Dutch East Indies and the British Commonwealth forces under General Percival in Singapore and Malaya have already surrendered a few weeks before Wainright followed suit.

The naval squadron under Admiral Karel Doorman was no longer based in the Dutch East Indies by the time it was destroyed at the battle for Java Sea.


photo, courtesy of Buhay na Kasaysayan