this article says so...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_..._17/ai_n9543886

...The individual and collective training conducted by the SF teams assigned to the Philippine battalions on Basilan raised Philippine soldier confidence levels, because most culminated in "graduation" combat operations in the field. Despite the fact that Basilan had been serving as the "combat JRTC" for AFP battalions for more than 10 years, the Filipino soldiers and marines were not proficient jungle fighters.Tactically, they were no match for the guerrilla forces operating from the remote areas of Basilan. A typical firefight resulted in one AFP killed and three AFP wounded, with many casualties of friendly fire.

really?? how accurate is this article? :armyeek:

so much for calling yourselves the best jungle fighters in asia eh? well if friendly fire casualties is the measure..



that article comes from US special forces assessment :fire:

well the best superpower do boast they're number one with all their weapons and equipments but still they fail at times. WWI, WWII, Korea Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq... lot's of friendly fire too!

How about yours?

That's obviously comes from one who never experienced what a real battle and soldiery is like. More likely a peon of those malcontents! Filipino soldiers have battled and survived countless foes despite lack of equipment, ammo and support. It is the heartless politicos and some leeches in officer's uniform that does more damage in the war against the insurgents.

As for the records of friendly fire casualties, that cannot be helped as corrupt politicos and officers salted away the funds that may have been used to replace the old barrels of issued rifles and machineguns.

And if we are to assess the American SF who operates here (duh, as if no one knows that they are taking part in the action) our local ordinary Army boys do better than them! Even with all their hi-tech goodies they can't seem to do well save in PR releases. More likely, this issued statement is another cover-up due to their f*&# ups. If they're so good how come they blundered in Somalia? And that operation in Panama and even in Iraq.

And if any of these friendly fire casualties has any ounce of truth then we should've seen a dead American SF body amongst them.

I happen to notice too that most who target the AFP rarely identifies themselves. They hide behind the mask of anonymity. Is this because they're just gutless peons of the communists?

FYI, American SFs who do 'joint' training with the local AFP boys are really learning from us. We are the teachers and they're the students. They're hi-tech toys rarely works as advertised and even have to be taped to avoid falling off. They can't even do a basic SF tactic (that is to melt into the local populace) as they can't speak the dialect of the locale. And with their goodies taken away most of the newbie SFs are helpless. Their old SF boys on the other hand show the proper respect and are acknowledged as equals. And in the soldiery business that is more than enough.

Hey Frenzy,

Be advised. Don't be caught posting stuff that reflect negatively on the AFP or you'll end up in the wrong end of a feeding frenzy. :nono: Look at me, I've got bite marks all over my body.


Because obviously you haven't been into combat so you have no opinion on AFP performance. Unlike them. So unless you get yourself on the boondocks and get shot at......you get the picture.




:patrioticpinoy: :patrioticpinoy:

nyehehehe :armyLol:

nice one mondo.

:armycheers:

Well guys, don't be so hard with our AFP as to be so sarcastic at times. They're doing their best with so little they have. Magkaroon nga ng funds na-kokorupt pa. Reactions to those sarcasm can't be avoided. Buti nga dito lang nilalabas. Paano na kung mag-wala at hinde na makapagpigil, like sa Oakwood, lalong maghihirap ang marami.
Masakit makatanggap ng mga pagpuna lalo na sa mga taong hindi naranasan ang hirap ng pakikidigma. Mapapatawad mo pa nga and mga tulad ni YiYiYi na dayuhan siguro ng kung anong bansa na walang digmaan. Pero kung tulad sa isang Pilipino mangagaling, mas doble ang sama sa loob. We cannot compare what other countries have that our AFP don't have.

And lastly, this is the Philippine Defense Forces Forum, their territory[B][/B] not the other. They are proud of what they do, let's not take it away from them. It's the only thing that's keep em going. :aberet:

I think for those of us who have experienced becoming refugees. i.e. "running away from the fighting" or who have had lands overtaken by elements the MILF have the right of being critical towards the AFP. Those of us who've been threatened if we didn't give revolutionary taxes to the NPA.


My finest hour in combat. Running away from a fight at 8 years of age.

Peace.

Better get some facts about Vietnam War, that even the most powerful and highly sophisticated Armed Forces in the World like U.S.A. suffered bitter defeat that claimed 55,000 American lives.
In Iraq War, American Jet Plane mistakenly shoot allied tanks.

Try to read about Russia who have the same military might like America but lost 20,000 Russian combatant in their Afghanistan campaign.

In every war there is always casualties whether friend or foe. Peace to all.

Rescuing the Burnhams: the unspoken SOCPAC mission

This article is a lot of crap, the MH-60L pilot chickened out in the last minute of approach in the LZ, it was a PAF UH-1H that have the guts to land in bad weather his helo. Gracia Burnham even ask an SR officer to take care of her diary and she wants it back once she is in the hospital.

Go figure why the SF team and the MH-60L crew have vague information. Everything, that he said in this article is third hand and not factually correct. The SR was in there, they were not in that operation. They just provided a ferry service and the SF team as security element of the casevac/medevac helo. How can this guy suddenly have first hand account of the operation.

Mondo,

Sad to hear that Bro.

But try not to blame it on the whole AFP. There are factors affecting their operations that's beyond their control. Just like almost all that's happening in our country. We want things that's good, everybody of us! But certain factors needs to be straighthen out at times that can't be done overnite. Let's just hope we are on the right track and what little gains we have will not be wasted. :aberet:

This may be the case before the SR Coy were dispatched to pursue the ASG. It says a lot, they were not even involved in the pursuit operations as they are enjoying rear echelon bliss. The guts to write this article.

I believe this article is part of their propaganda to justify US SF presence so as not to be questioned by groups against U.S. interventions. "Opening the Second Front: Operation Enduring Freedom-Philippines, January-August 2002, Us a part of Enduring Freedom. Sad is, at the expense of our AFP.

Imagine, they're teaching daw marksmanship, first-aid, fighting at night and in the rain etc to our SR/SF. :drunk:

Obviously, the article is inaccurate and even misleading.

The writer, as you have said, didnt get the "first hand account of the operation".

He definitely do not know the level of expertise of our Marines and SOCOM forces.

They may have thougth that the training and equipments provided by the Americans were the main reasons why we are winning the battles here.

The Americans gave us an added advantage alrigth, but what mainly contributed to our troop's overall effectiveness are the inherent attributes and the experience gained from more than a century of fightning foreign troops and rebels.

Who's more skilled in jungle warfare?

The US?

I dont think so. I bet all cockroaches and rats in my neighbor's house for that one!

Remember the American guy who carried all his craps while patrolling with our Scout Rangers in Mindanao and was left behind because he couldnt keep up with our troops?

To test how good the Americans are in our jungle environment setup, get their best Marine unit or Delta Team or Navy SEALs to conduct an operation here.

Let's see how many will survive,... if in case they get lucky. :armyroleyes:

Nonetheless, we cannot deny that the US really helped us a lot in enhancing our capability because of the weapons and gadgets they gave us. Not to mention the new tactics our local troops learned from them.

We salute our Big Brother for that feat. :thumb: :thumb:

This insulting article though is not done right.

The way he put it made it as if "THE FILIPINO SOLDIERS DO NOT KNOW HOW TO FIGHT".

That is precisely wrong.

In fact, we know better than the Americans when it comes to jungle warfare. The only advantage of the US troops is have these modern navigational and communications gadgets and their newer weapons. Their air support is awesome as well.

But try to give the US soldiers the same weapons and gadgets that our local troops have and get them to Mindanao. See if they can do better than our soldiers.

We must not forget that the Americans are learning from us as well while they train us.

Those advisory team that they are sending?

They are making Mindanao as their testing ground so that they will know what to do when the US military will be fighting in a similar environment.

So why did they choose us?

Well, if you want to get the best testing ground for jungle warfare, where would you be?

Imagine, our military's best against the worst type of enemies.... IN A WORST TYPE OF JUNGLE WARFARE ENVIRONMENT?

:armywink:

The Americans are so happy they were there when our troops were engaging the rebels.

They've learned a lot from these battles. :exactly:

This is not about ego or something. This is just a humble and honest assessment. I know our soldiers can agree with that.

:armycheers:

So, if you cant agree with that and you're not a Filipino soldier.. and you keep on making this as an issue, ...

.. all I can say is this;

... SO WHAT? YOU'RE NOT A FILIPINO WARRIOR ANYWAY.

Better get back at your own troops and find out what you can brag about them. :armywink:

Else, ..... you arent being disallowed to read and post here yet! So, enjoy while you still can!

:armycheers:

"But try to give the US soldiers the same weapons and gadgets that our local troops have and get them to Mindanao. See if they can do better than our soldiers."

That I wanna' see! No air support (black-hawks, jets), satellite tracks, NVGs, GPS, M4s and other hi-tech stuffs. Just M16's, M14s and skyflakes as meal, at night in the rain. Sama nyo pa si YiYiYi! :banana:

Almonares, who fought with MILF rebels in Camp Abubakar, then instructed four of his snipers to take position and locate the hostages. Like the LRC, the Rangers are trained in close-quarter combat. But the clouds began to form and it started to rain.

In regular combat, this would have been Ranger weather, a Ranger officer tells Newsbreak.

"When we say the weather is cooperating, that means it’s raining. We welcome the rain to quench our thirst and because we are trained to move even under the rain…that’s when the enemy relaxes."

Unfortunately, the enemy in this case was holding hostages. The last thing the Rangers needed was rain and fog that would blur their line of sight. They came close to within 20 meters of the ASG’s tents, and that’s when they planned the raid—without seeing the hostages. A sniper fired the first shot, not the ASG as previously reported.

http://www.philippinemarinecorps.mil.ph/c6_sirawai.html

I dont think our AFP are no match to the insurgents, if they were we probably have to sing internationale as our national anthem.And Mindanao will be under the MILF.
It is just our troops had not been used to its full capacity.It is like sending your dog that who can bark and bite to attack but at the last minute asking your dog just to nibble. :pistols:

ya but trianing them in jungle warfare and right weapons :patrioticpinoy:

SA sabayan, kasinungalinga na no match AFP sa propaganda. Well true no match. basta nakita nyo yung isang grupo sa EDSA? di mo basta pwede gamitan ng dahas yun.

As long as the insurgents and other enemies of the state do not take over the country--the AFP still is doing a good job. :urock:

The AFP is no match vs. insurgents because corrupt officials are holding them back from their full potential. Instead of ending the war a long, long time ago, corrupt officials don't want the war to end since they profit from the purchase of military equipment. Kung wala pa tong mga TRAPO at mga pareho kay MGen Garcia, matagal na tugis ang mga insurgents na yan.

i have fought against the US in wargames. just asked my men to literally s@#t on the trail (coz they never take another route, stole some of their water) and all i could here was "s@#t!s@#t!s@#t!, they gave themselves away warning us that they are near and we beat the s@#t out of them. the technique they use a lot is "leap frogging" while we improvise on the spot. most of them carry so much equipment and they suffer from heat casualty while we carry only canteens and ammo!!!! another question is why do they come every year if they are not learning anything and why did they come to crow valley to learn from our ita's. :patrioticpinoy:

i asked my US counter part who is in the service at the same time i was 10yrs, and asked him how many encounters do you have? he answered 0, and im sure i have more than him. who has experience now? The US or the Philippines? i also found out that most of the US troops only enlisted for college or just for 2 tours our troops, most of them enlisted for life we have a higher rate of re - enlistment, re-ups than them.

This thread is still ALIVE?

Geesh... and so what's wrong if we enlist for college? I do.
10 years is a long time... was this a marine or army?

Sunstar Daily News
Thursday, May 10, 2007
2 army men killed in Negros ambush (3:50 p.m.)

BACOLOD CITY -- Two government troopers were killed while two others were injured after their team was ambushed by suspected members of the New People's Army (NPA) in Barangay Pinaghugasan, Escalante City , Negros Occidental early Thursday.

Brigadier General Gregorio Fajardo, commanding general of the 303rd Infantry Brigade, confirmed that about 30 rebels ambushed the team from the 33rd Reconnaissance Company while on their way to the town proper.

There were two minors who hitchhiked but they survived the attack with minor abrasions, he said.

The troopers, whose mobile base is located at Barangay Libertad, were on an administrative movement, Fajardo said. One of the casualties was killed on the spot while the other one died while being treated for gunshot wounds, he said. He however declined to identify the victims until they have informed their
respective families.

Almost at the same time, in the next town of Calatrava, seven Scout Rangers encountered 13 to 15 armed men in Barangay Bagacay.

Fajardo said the armed men were likely NPA members.

The rangers left a grenade, backpack, armalite magazine and a shotgun at the encounter site.

The military has ordered the intense monitoring of armed movement in the Toboso town to Calatrava which are known stronghold of the NPA. (ABL)

Commander Saver111,

Tama ka dyan. They (US) boast so much about how modernized they are in terms of gadgets and battle tactics. But with all that they have they seem to have a hard time nailing down Osama (its been 6 yrs and counting since 911) and his henchmen. In Iraq, I bet they have either an equal amount of casualties from friendly fire than enemy fire.

I also would like to see their "elite" carry what our current rangers have and battle it out with the NPA's and MILF's and see how they fare. I was told by some friends here in the US particular those who fought during WW2, Korean and Vietnam Wars that the current crop of troops that the US have are more concerned about having a good time like watching football while sipping a can of beer. According to them that the current crop of troopers are not tough enough or brave enough as compared to their predecessors. The "basic instincts" of war are not there but rather they rely so much on technology that they forget to "think" before they act and that is why most wind up getting shot either by friendly fire or enemy fire.

I believe, sad to say, that the MILF's and NPA's are the best jungle fighters now given their limited resources and manpower. They have no air support, no or limited super hightech detection devices and firearms but still inflict heavy losses to government troops. With the experience that our troops have fighting the rebels for more than 30 years, if they are issued with the right equipment, I firmly believe that they can outdo themselves and gain more ground against the rebels.

:thumb:

Unusual for trained recon troops to leave such things behind. Too sloppy for them. :armyeek:

It's very easy for us to make the conclusion in the safety of our homes and offices as we are not underfire. Hope we would be able to know the real circumstances behind the encounter.

Ok. the recon team was probably outmatched and outgunned considering the number of bad guys who did the ambush - 30.

They probably beat a hasty retreat.

more about this ambush story...note the vehicle the recon troops are riding:

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=76874

NPA ambush

The NPA ambush of troopers from the Philippine Army’s 33rd Reconnaissance Company in Escalante City Thursday plunged into a crisis.

The group, riding on a Suzuki Carry multi-cab, was on their way to fetch drinking water when they were ambushed, killing two soldiers and wounding two other army troopers.

The victims were Pvt. Michael Angelo Inocerio and Pvt. Jonel Valon. Their wounded were Pvts. Ariel Venerable and Roberto Sinoy. All belonged to Task Force North of the Philippine Army.

The Army troopers reportedly came from Barangay La Libertad, and were on their way to Escalante City when they were chanced upon by the NPA band.

Two others – civilians Rey Pacumberto, 12, and Enarciso Librando, 16 – were slightly wounded.

Four Air Force helicopters are now assisting the soldiers in their pursuit of the rebel-ambushers.

Four days ago, the military also killed three suspected NPA rebels in Isabel town in Negros Occidental.

But a militant organization claimed that the three were only part of a group of five Isabela civilians purportedly massacred by the military.

The Army, meanwhile, declared that the entire northern Negros was showing signs of increased activities of armed groups and thus, an area to watch.

mga bro, its not the 33rd Recce Coy guys who left the shotgun and grenade.

If you care to read the article, its the Scout Ranger team involved in the second encounterwho left the items. Now that's even more alarming since its a given that the SRs are better trained than than the regular recon troopers. :armyeek:

To our posters who are members of the AFP: Huwag kayong ma-pikon or super-defensive if the US officers criticize the performance ng mga sundalo natin. Minsan kasi, kailangan natin ng someone external who will see our situation in a different light. This is true in the civilian world as well as in the military.

I am not a member of the AFP so I don't have an idea how valid yung mga statements in the article above but as someone who has worked in a civilian company with both Pinoys and Western expats, I have noticed this pikon and defensive attitude sa mga kasama kong Pinoy sa trabaho ko when we have some foreign experts to review our performance and work.

Yung mga westerners (European or American) are rather direct sa mga evaluations nila. I am not saying tama palagi ang mga Kano pero it is good to listen to what they are saying objectively. After all, the US is the #1 superpower in the world and they spend more $ than all the militaries in the world combined!

Sinabi lang na, in their opinion, our marines and SF's are not proficient jungle fighters and they do have the data to back it up. If too many of our troops are killed by friendly fire, we should do something to correct this and we should be glad the US pointed this to our AFP brass.

Ang reaction naman ng maraming posters (which is the typical Pinoy reaction by the way) is to point out the defects of the US, kesyo yung US got bogged down in Iraq/Vietnam, kesyo marami ring US troops namatay sa friendly fire nung WWII, etc. etc. So what! Do you know that the US constantly critiques its own performance?

To our AFP officers and men, please listen naman to your US counterparts cooly and objectively. They are not their para i-mamaliit yung fighting skills ninyo but to improve them.

Yes, it is hard on the ego pero, based on my experience in the business world, an "external audit" is sometimes necessary to give you the proper feedback. I know it is hard at even ako nanibago.

Huwag kayong mag-react negatively kung may mga feedback ang mga Kano na not so glowing or even downright negative. They are there to do a job and, in reality, are just holding a much-needed mirror in front of the faces of our AFP.

Sagot naman tayo, eh, mga Kano, hindi rin super-jungle fighters and can't blend in sa mga civilians. Hello, hindi specialty ng mga Kano ang jungle fighting and they will never blend in our local populace!

Sure, kulang ang AFP sa modern equipment pero doesn't mean our fighting proficiency can't be improved.

If the US also learns from our troops about jungle warfare, so what? That is the whole point of the joint US-RP exercises anyway.

Here's what happened - SR threw grenade at enemy but grenade was a dud. He then fired his shotgun but it also failed to fire so he threw the shotgun at the nearest enemy. The bad guys kept coming so his buddy covered their retreat by throwing M16 magazine and backpack at them. The communist terrorists thought that the backpack was an Improvised Explosive Device and ran for their lives.

The reporter just failed to get the real facts when he wrote that story.



:demon:

well thats that even if our army is battle harden we still need good equipment for them its always the problem of the army since 1892 :patrioticpinoy:

:lollol: darn ignorant reporter...his editor-in-chief should have him shot for not getting the story right.

Sonofagun

thats not true...we can take them in an equal footing...the problem is, we lack equipment