according to the DND Secretary

the PAF component of the Capability Upgrade

Air Strike can be performed by either rotary or fixed-wing aircraft, already a thread for attack helos so here are some options for fixed-wing attack aircraft



Super Tucano/ALX

Brazilian-made advanced trainer with full attack capability. armoured cockpit, provision for underbelly FLIR, Elbit avionics, precision guided munitions, powerful P&W PT6 engine. since it's a trainer, can replace our aging...ok, aged SF-260/260TPs, two birds with one stone. pricey, though: $5 mil each.



L159A/ALCA

another combo trainer/attack aircraft contender from the Czech Republic. developed from the Warsaw Pact favorite Aero Vodochody L59, which humiliated Hawks and Alpha Jets during NATO exchange visits. powered by an ITEC F124 turbofan, the non-afterburning version of the RoCAF Ching Kuo's F125. radar is an Italian FIAR Grifo-L, lightweight version of the one installed on the RSAF's upgraded F-5S, which allows ALCA to use antiship missiles.

interestingly

probably to do with funding the Gripen deal. reported price of a brand-new ALCA is less than $10 million, so the price of a used one would be?

worth looking into... :crawling:

The PAF is on right track with these planes. Good choice. I really wanted to see PAF having these Tucano's nad L159 advance trainer and attack aircraft.

L159A main features
Multi-Mode Pulse Doppler Radar
Advanced Human/Machine Interface wit Head-Up Display (HUD), Multi-Function Colour Display (MFCD) and Hands-On-Throttle-And-Stick (HOTAS) controls
Avionics Integration based on MIL-STD-1553 databus
Accurate and autonomous navigation system with laser gyro based Inertial Navigation System (INS) and Global Positioning System (GPS)
Extensive in-flight recording and debriefing capability for video, audio, self-protection system, engine and aircraft parameters
On-condition maintenance and fatigue monitoring system for low operational cost and optimum use of aircraft service life
On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS), On-Board Inert Gas Generating System (OBIGGS) and Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for self-contained operation with minimum support
Seven pylons for various stores
Ability to operate from semi-prepared airfields
"Best in its class" F124-GA-100 engine
Self-protection system installation and use of redundant systems for high level of survivability and flight safety
Multi Mission Flexibility in a Single Airframe
Air Interdiction
Close Air Support
Anti-Ship Missions
Air Defence
Counter Insurgency
Border Patrol
Tactical Reconnaissance

Main Operational Benefits of the L159 Design
Wide range of NATO compatible stores
Enhanced survivability
Superior handling qualities and high trust-to weight ratio
Advanced Human-Machine Interface
State-of-the-art systems and equipment
Data loading and recording systems support effective mission planning and debriefing
Ability to operate from semi-prepared airfields
Low acquisition and operational costs
L159A Basic Data

=====================================================

Wow :wow:

This plane can also be a good pick for our Interim MRF. :specool:

the Czechs are actually planning to sell majority of their 72 L159As and retain only a few of the planes for their Air Force. as for the tandem-seater L159Bs, the Czechs only have two of the aircraft (which means that if we want L159Bs, we will have to BUY from Aero Vodochody L159Bs).

we better get the L159s before the Czechs reconsider the idea of transferring the aircraft to SLOVAKIA.


* as for the EMB-314 Super Tucano, it can be a great replacement for the OV-10 Bronco. :fire:

Aero Vodochody offers licence to produce L-159 combat aircraft

Aero Vodochody, the largest Czech aircraft maker, will offer licenced production of the L-159 light combat aircraft to foreign companies, it was reported Wednesday.

It is believed that the sale will help boost competitiveness, it was said.

A successful sale will make Aero the first aircraft producer ever to hand over documentation for military aircraft production to a foreign firm after the fall of the Iron Curtain.

"We have preliminarily selected countries where we could sell the licence," Aero president Antonin Jakubse said.

Milan Holl, director of the Czech Association of the Aviation Manufacturers ALV, said that China and a number of other developing countries would be interested in the licence.

The Industry and Trade Ministry has approved Aero's plan to offer the licence abroad.

"We have obtained detailed information on that," the ministry's spokesman Ivo Mravinac said.

So far, Aero has entered into talks on the aircraft's sale with 13 companies, and has offered several of them licenced production.

"The talks have just started. They [the companies] have not expressed their stances yet," Jakubse said, but would not say which countries are among the potential buyers.

The state, which controls Aero, is planning to sell the company.

Jakubse said he hopes the government finds a buyer by mid-2006 at the latest.

One of the conditions of the tender is that the state has to sell Aero as a whole.

Another condition is that the tender must secure L-159 repair and maintenance services for the Czech army, which will continue to use the aircraft after Aero's privatisation.

Jakubse said that both foreign and Czech companies have shown interest in Aero, but would not disclose their names.

http://www.flysouth.co.za/news/2005-06-17/...0aircraft.shtml

The Airforce should get their hands into this before its too late again. This plane is versatile and suits our need for an interim aircraft w/c can be used for training and light attack, also the price and maintenance cost..act PAF! :fire:

If funding is there, I wouldnt mind having a few more of these...?:



Possible planes with ALX's capabilities.

KO-1, XKO, or KT-1C, the armed CAS/FAC version of the KT-1 trainer in service with both South Korea and Indonesia. There have been rumors the South Koreans are negotiating with PAF for these, that was a while ago however.

includes:
-OBOGS
-HUD, and fighter-like cockpit
-centerline FLIR
-5 hardpoints, 4 if centerline is for FLIR pod
-carry large assortment of stores
This version being developed is said to be like the ALX.

South Korean examples, not the KO-1,XKO, or the KT-1C variant,



Indonesian examples



JPATS/(A)T-6 Texan ii-
-6 hardpoints, plus centerline
-B model includes advanced cockpit, but CAS aircraft, cheapest and most rugged as possible
-costs in between $3-$6million



---I only put this since "external pressures" might force countries to get it. Example, the Dominican Republic has chosen the Super Tucano for its new border patrol/COIN/advanced training aircraft, 10 were announced to be bought. US has alot of influence on Dominican Republic military and untimately US pressure to get the armed AT-6 TexanII forced the deal with the Super Tucano to stall and is currently deadlocked. Think back to the PAF, the US has alot of influence within the PAF...fill in the rest.

I would've said keep the SF-260TP since the PAF has been getting them or their predecesors since the 60s, heck local companies can rebuild these aircraft, so logistics is plus. But for armed missions, it does not compare with today's armed trainers. Biggest drawback is the lack of ejection seats, also consider the side-by-side pilot seating, which is different from piloting a real fighter or jet trainer.

---Interesting to note here is that the ALX, unlike the Super Tucano, KT-1, TexanII, Redigos, SF-260, or most trainers that can be armed for light strike, the ALX was designed specifically for light strike/attack missions. ALX has internally mounted .50caliber guns. This is useful since this means that the ALX does not need to mount gun pods, freeing up the 4 hardpoints. The ALX has israeli-designed attack computer making targetting easier. ALX has kevlar-lined cockpit for pilot protection. It is also suggested that the light strike variant of the KT-1 will feature capability similar to the ALX, but i havent seen a picture or details of it yet. Notice it or not, the KT-1, TexanII, Super Tucano, PC-9 use the same engine, while the ALX uses a new more powerful engine.

If only funding was there.

might in fact be better for the PAF to get the Texan, it being the American services’ standard trainer. the KO-1 is also attractive since Korea’s (and maybe Indonesia’s) proximity helps as far as maintenance is concerned. obviously, the Philippines has to decide what’s best considering the funding available.

me too, but even assuming the PAF gets 1/3 of the $600 million budgeted, to meet all of the Capability Upgrade Plan's requirements i think there’s no way it can afford both the ALX and the ALCA. so, choose…

assuming the ALCA is chosen, the PAF can at most get only 10 or 12, at least two of which need to be two-seaters. since L-159Bs are not immediately available, it can make do with “borrowed” Czech L-59s as a stopgap. looking at the price of brand-new L-159s

to afford a pair or two of bnew two-seaters, the PAF can save by leaving-out the radar and less-needed electronics, the space in the trainer’s nose converted into a modular equipment bay, which can take a FLIR/long range camera combo for recon, or FLIR/laser for strike, or just a pair of machine guns. the PAF puts the single-seaters to work asap, it waits two years for the two-seaters and sends back the L-59s, meanwhile the streamlining of the PAF organization under the PDR program generates results in savings and improved aircraft availability.

four years later, the startup six-year phase of the PDR ends, assuming it achieves its objectives and the economy improves, the PAF starts the next phase, a new set of priorities including the upgrade of the PAF’s training assets, time to get ALXs or Texans to retire the SF-260s, to replace the S-211s the PAF finally acquires (or licence-produces?) a full squadron of L-159 two-seaters as lead-in fighter trainers, its now-veteran ALCA pilots becoming instructors for further batches of flyers.

only then does the PAF buy MRFs.

or

the PAF gets the ALX and retires or re-roles the SF-260 and the OV-10. the first phase of the PDR rolls on...midway into the second phase (10 years from now), the PAF needs a lead-in fighter trainer to replace the S-211 and it also requires MRFs. it looks at its budget and at what's available in the market



large pic

T-50 Golden Eagle

the Golden Eagle has the aerodynamics of the F-16 and the engine of the Gripen. Lockheed-Martin designed the wings and FBW flight controls and is positioning it as an USAF T-38 replacement. the T-50 is an lead-in fighter trainer while the A-50 will have radar and full combat capability. clearly, this is the 21st century's version of the F-5. price: $15-22 million.

the competition



EADS Mako

according to armada international, the Mako's claimed radar cross setion is one square meter at 44 kilometers, so it's a stealth aircraft. the engine will be the GE F414 from the Super Hornet, licence-built by Volvo, a derated version going into the High Energy Advanced Trainer version, while the Light Combat Aircraft gets the full-rated powerplant. try matching this with BVRAAMs, this is a serious MRF. my take on the slow development: the Europeans do not want to kill sales of the Typhoon, they’re waiting for the F-35 to come online before unleashing the Mako LCA to undercut the F-35 pricewise, the Typhoon by then having received its full multirole capabilities to take on the F-35 at the high end. right now, the Typhoon is touted at $80+ million, the F-35 at $50-70 million, the Mako at $20-25 million. definitely worth waiting for.

what does the PAF address today: its SF-260s and OV-10s aching for replacement, or its almost non-existent jet fleet. choose with an eye to the future.

decisions, decisions... :pistols:

i'm not sure, is this it?

Kung natuloy lang yun Cali/Pinto projects noon o kahit yun ginawang eroplano ng namatay na ATO officer hindi na natin kailangan bumili pa sa mga dayuhan. Still, yun Czech plane is nice. That streamlined replacement for the T38 is nice too. Props are a good choice for close support sa ground troops. I recall on Manokski's page mayroon crop duster variant pa na suggested.

Bingo... XKO. Too bad it does not have the wing mounted .50caliber guns of the ALX.

City Hunter said:
"I recall on Manokski's page mayroon crop duster variant pa na suggested."

Actually it is Opus's site. The Vigilante. Armored, 11 hardpoints, 4,000+ load capacity, 7-hour endurance. US State Department bought them and uses them for drug erradication in countries with drug crops, amongst the beneficiaries but not the least, our ASEAN brothers Thailand and Burma.

Ooops. Thanks for the correction!

as posted in Opus' website:

http://www.timawa.net/modernization-paf.htm


AYRES V-1-A Vigilante as COIN Aircraft

"But it's a crop-duster!!"

Yes... but it's armored, can carry 4,200 lbs of weapons, can stay airborne for 7 hours, and is highly responsive since crop-dusters have to be able to avoid telephone lines and vehicles at the ends of fields when they make their low-level runs. It is also cheap, uncomplicated and easy to maintain.

In the 1980s the United States faced a worsening drug problem and adopted a policy of spraying coca plantations in South America and parts of Asia through the US State Department in cooperation with the respective countries' governments. Surplus OV-10 Broncos were modified and used for these roles but the growers threw considerable resources against them, including machine guns, anti-aircraft cannon and even shoulder launched anti-aircraft missiles. It was later realized that the Broncos were vulnerable in the high-threat, low altitude environments they had to operate in. There were also problems integrating the various ducts and spray-bars to the Bronco and the resulting drag compromised performance and degraded handling.

In the interim, the US State Department approached Ayres Corporation of Albany, GA to help develop a new "drug eradicator." Ayres specialized in making crop-dusters and owned the rights to the Rockwell Thrush Commander. The resulting aircraft, rolled out in 1983, used an uprated Pratt and Whitney PT6A-65AG turbine engine offering 1,376 hp driving a 9-foot-3-inch five bladed propeller and had an armored two-seat dual control cockpit, an armored back-up fuel tank and provisions for sophisticated communications and navigation equipment. Nine aircraft were delivered to the US State Department inder the designation Turbo-Thrush S2R-T65/5400 NEDS (Narcotics Eradication Delivery System) and were reportedly used in Burma, Thailand, Columbia, Mexico, Guatemala, and Belize.

The US State Department and the US Army Electro-Optical Survivability Program funded development of a modified NEDS for strike duties. The resulting aircraft, dubbed Ayres V-1-A Vigilante, was identical to the NEDS except that it was equipped to carry weapons instead of spraying equipment. There are 11 hardpoints (four under each wing and three tandem pylons under the fuselage) with a combined ordnance capacity of 4,200 lbs, possible weapon fits including 2.75-in. folding-fin aerial rocket pods, napalm canisters, Stinger missiles and a variety of bombs. The aircraft can also be fitted with a variety of surveillance equipment including FLIR an LLTV night vision cameras, video recorders and digital data-links for transmitting images to ground stations.

The US Border Patrol successfully tested the Vigilante in the nocturnal border-surveilance role but funding for the aircraft was not available and the program ended.

The NEDS and Vigilante have a maximum spead of 250 mph and an economical cruising speed of 170 mph. Stall speed with flaps extended is 58 mph. With light loads the aircraft can take-off in 395 ft. Fully-loaded it will take off in 1,250 ft.

The Vigilante is said to cost only $1 million each and has an existing worldwide support network, since over 2,500 Thrush crop-dusters have been sold to over 65 countries. An added benefit to using the Vigilante in COIN duties is its low political visibility. It is harder to for the propaganda arm of an insurgent group to demonize before the world press a low-tech modified crop duster than purpose-built military aircraft. The type is also simple enough and may be suited for local production, both for internal security and in the aircraft's primary configuration for agricultural spraying and aerial fire fighting.


- maybe the Vigilante will be a good COIN platform but we really want a real ground attack plane, then we must consider the following aircraft:

* A-4 Skyhawk



* A-7 Corsair II



* surplus German Alpha Jet As

For Air Strike, pwede na siguro yung A-10 Thunderbolt. Considering the firepower, survivality and payload.

check the link below:
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/a-10/a-10.htm

How about the T2C Buckeye which has external provisions for armaments? Or the T38A Talon specifically its AT38B version which also has provisions for armaments and can cost as low as US$800,000.00 more or less?

if we want a true ground attack for our PAF then lets get the AMX.. :fire:

http://www.raytheonaircraft.com

21st century Tora-Tora?

Wow, that bird looks mean.

I would call that the hotshot mudfighter's wetdream.

If we can only afford that...

Beautiful and meanlooking. Still lacks the wing-mounted .50caliberMG of the ALX.

According to the raytheon site:

Which might explain the fluxuations of price according to FlugReview:

Might as well get cheapest A version and locally modify them with the 6/7 hardpoints when they are delivered, saves money that way. The PAF's SF-260TP and S.211 are like that. But that would mean the ground attack avionics would not come with the aircraft...standard with the ALX.

Still a great plane, like all planes...that are nice to dream over.

no dream, dude. it's a requirement

if the PAF's going to spend several million dollars worth of taxpayer's money to upgrade its capabilities, it might as well try to hit as many birds with one stone as possible :aberet:

a lesson from the past, on the merits of thinking long-term: back in the late eighties, the PAF held a competition to select a new trainer aircraft, as everyone knows the winner was the SIAI-Marchetti S-211. this is the aircraft that the then-incumbent chose the S-211 over

my friends, i think the excerpted article speaks for itself. so draw your own conclusions while I go :headbang:

and now for something completely different: get a load of this. again, draw your own conclusions.

This has been discussed before - the Stavatti is a paper airplane. All they have to show so far is a nice site and nice graphics.

They however were not the originator of the idea.

Check out the Scaled Composites website

http://www.scaled.com/projects/ares.html

Note: Scaled composites is Burt Rutans Company, the designers and manufacturers of Spaceship one.

ARES

Manokski, didn't know that the SM-27 had been dissed here before, but it's certainly obvious that quote-unquote "Stavatti Military Aerospace" ain't exactly in the same league as Lockheed Martin: like I said, everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusions, including the most obvious one... :aberet:

This weapon are obsolete. I won't waste my time and money for this. They are quite effective on the 60's and 70's mission tactics but the Philippine geostrategic shifts a lot to the cuurent strategic status. Example defeating the insurgent thru multi-bombing tactics but the public is highly reactive on the mishaps ( Private property, cilivians, too much firepower over Small Lethal weapons). We have this equivalent types during the heights of the PAF during 60's, but still not able to defeat the insurgency. This won't last in 2 minutes against a hypotetical Chinese aggression. Even the United States came to the rescue, It will be a permanent black eye in the history of the PAF in a humiliating defeat in just 2 mins or so.

Super Tucano I think is an appropriate platform for COIN and coastal patrol.Since our PAF tech. crew are also very good in maintaining a prop driven plane.

AAM on a prop plane??/hmmm.....cheap alternative to replace F-5 for Air to Air missions.... hehehe wawa nman tlaga PAF....

expert says if we do not have a anti ship missile frigates our navy will continued to be ignored by ou enemies.

so

if we lack the supersonic tech in our inventory our airforce will be ignored also

na alala nyo ba ung insidente sa spratly nung magkasalubong ung 2 fighter planes ng malaysia at isang eroplano ntin buti na lang nangyari kc iniignore lang tau ng malaysia. ung vietname nga eh tinitira tau ng anti airgun nila sa spratly isipin nyo na lang kung seryoso ung vietnam no, anti air missile ang dedeploy nila dun wawa tau. isipin nyo natuto ung mga milf na gumawa ng small anti air missile edi bagsak agad yang mga tora tora ntin.

dapat multirole fighter na lang para tipid kya nga tinawag na multi eh...

i suggest a Grippen MRF

When people look unto the USAF with its Stealth fighters and UAVs as the future of their country's airforce. Many of our neighbors build an airforce along those lines where 1st -line jets dominate the flightline.

This is not true for many airforces of developing countries, us included, who do not have the budget to sustain such fleets and their bureacucracies (in the military and in the civil government) are saddled with corruption and politicking keep development at snail's pace.

We will have to build an airforce that may not have cutting edge equipment but is highly mission-capable.

Going New Zealand (abolishing combat units) seems to be the most viable option for the PAF to cut costs. However, we are not as remote as that British Commonwealth and we have China and an insurgency to worry.

This thread is not only about low-cost combat aircraft and other systems but about ways the PAF still be highly capable despite low defense politics and having to serve a government laden with partisan politics and corruption

That's the right way for PAF to go. as I see it, it's so huge for a force that operates less than a hundred aircraft. Also its not what they have but it's about how they use their assets

If you're going to "go New Zealand" and still keep the current focus on COIN, then the PAF might as well buy more heavy lift transports- preferrably up to 20 Hercs- which could prove quite useful in shifting troops from one area of the archipelago to another, though this could be out of the reach of the current budget. Still, let's face it, having 3 Hercs for transport capability is pathetic considering the PAF used to have a regular shuttle service using Hercs between bases in the Northern and Southern parts of the islands. I don't put much faith in smaller transports and so-called "liasion craft"; the less variety in transport airframes, the better (no need to train technicians to service each kind of plane and the supply chain will simplified if one only needed to buy parts for one kind of plane). The Hercs would do wonders if there were more of them, especially since they themselves can also do other missions aside from transport, including maritime patrol as well as CAS, if they were armed like USAF Spectre gunships I mean.

The current acquisition of hand-me-down Hueys from the US and other sources may also be a practical choice given realities of the RP. but perhaps having more modern multi-role helos such as British Lynxes, Canadian Griffons or even attack helicopters like Italian Mangustas or even Polish Hinds will help the PAF attain GMA's goal of wiping out the NPA and other insurgencies within ten years.

Still, regardless of the current focus on COIN, I still think that letting down on external defense is a BAD idea, since Tora Tora pointed out himself that the Philippines is not located in an isolated place like New Zealand and the RP's many neighbors can also be potential adversaries. It would be a threat that a first-line MRF would be well suited to address.

Which third world country has a first rate air force?
I can't consider India because of her huge economy.
I think Pakistan is the only third world country with a first rate Air Force, F16, Mirage 2000, and the soon to be in service JF17.

Anyone else?

here are some "third world" countries which seem to have a better Air Force than the Philippines:

* Colombia
* Pakistan
* Mexico
* Ecuador
* Chile
* Peru
* Venezuela
* Argentina
* Thailand


among these countries, Colombia is the perfect example of what the Philippines must do with its Air Force and its entire military establishment (except maybe for the fact that Colombia is receiving so much funding from the US, much of it going to the "War Against Illegal Drugs"). Just like the Philippines, Colombia is plagued with long-running guerilla war and at the same time, it also has to deal with the threat being posed to it by neighboring Venezuela. however, unlike the Philippines, Colombia has a potent military force equipped to deal with BOTH internal and external threats.

some of the stuffs that the Fuerza Aerea Colombiana has:


-- upgraded Mirage 5 fighters


-- upgraded Kfir fighters


-- upgraded OV-10s


-- UH-60 Blackhawks, including UH-60L Arpia helicopter gunships


-- BT-67 Turbo Dakotas, including AC-47 gunships


-- UH-1H Huey IIs

-- old OA-37B Dragonfly attack aircraft


-- Boeing Business jet, the official presidential plane


-- C-26B Metro light transport and reconnaissance planes


-- CN-235 transport planes


-- Mi-17-1V Hip helicopters


-- C-212 Aviocar transport planes


how was that for a "third world" Air Force? :headbang:

For now, I find following Latin American examples as most attractive.

The PAF's COIN and COIN-related airmobility capabilities should be designed for fighting a protracted long-term low-intensity campaign. This means the aircraft for this type of war should not only designed to be rugged and reliable it must be very cheap to operate so as not to be a huge burden on the budget. I'd rather not go for helos as the COIN workhorse transprt. STOL single-engine turboprops like PC6es have better range, speed and rough-field servicability.

As for it's airlift capabilities, the few C130s we have should only be delegated to heavylift and long-haul missions. They are to costly for us to operate on a regular basis. Most of the Herc's other missions would be given to medium lift 2-engine platforms. Ba67s would be a good idea if only we could get our hands on C47 airframes that are still in good condition. Otherwise CN235s are a better bet.

The LCA is to be our external defense workhorse of choice. They're cheaper than fighters and they can do as much. They can also be used for CAS if necessary. I'd go for the A50 or the L159. A reliable 2-engined MPA should also be procured like ATRs or CN235s. It goes without saying we should also upgrade our RADAR system. MRFs can supplement those LCAs in the future once our economy, political scene and internal security situation all stabilize

However, before all this, the PAF must take steps to further professionalize its ranks, get its ass out of politics and learn to be more wise in spending its budget

Yeah you are right Tora, the PAF should follow Latin America's example.
A a matter of fact, the Philippines is very much like the LAtin Americans

here are some "third world" countries which seem to have a better Air Force than the Philippines:


include Bangladesh airforce bro if you are comparing to PH

in future we will have JF17/FC1 for sure

then the interest on Mig29 variants Su30 F10

the PH defence budget is more then enough to have 2 wings of F16

oh yes comrade Chowking. i forgot to include Bangladesh in the list. my apologies. :armysmile:

In my opinion, we should prioritize the needs of the Armed Forces, currently, there are a lot of internal security threats from insurgents, thus, the Air Force may need transport and attack helicopters to support ground operations by the Army. Once the threat has been neutralized then we may opt to acquire multi-role aircrafts, shifting the priority from internal to external security.

Thats what Phase 1 of the Modernization was all about. Right now the Air Force can't help it self but to pray for the congress,senate, DND and DBM to approve and release their needed budget.

The civilian Community will play a bigger role in developing our ill fated air force institution. If everybody will contribute and gained much awareness how badly the PAF is right now. Im sure everybody wants to contribute.

But in this country of Full of Politics no wonder how the National security suffer a lot of dead locks. From information spoilage to misconception of the developing the needs of our country's defense system the whole AFP body will take a very harsh opposition from different sectors.

Right now what the Philippines want to see is stop the stupid political ambitions of this un ethical congressman and senators. Most of them is only making a their own names thru ground standing without even understanding their political party's real agenda's.Did you notice it guys that this bunch of politicians never stick to the party's real agenda and their stand on an issue?