is the Pn still patrolling the spratlys islands or they have already allowed the chinese to takeover?

We still do, a combined PAF & PN task force is managing this area.

well good so the chinese cannot just rule that area like their own fishing grounds :thumb:

If I were President Ramos, i would have blasted the Chinese structures even while the occupants are still in there.

What a disgusting President! He's even a West Point grad and a former AFP Chief. :bs:

"Triumph will he who knows when to fight, and when not to fight"

- Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

Ramos knew what he was doing.

If you gave your message any thought before you posted it, you would have realized that if Ramos initiated a hostile intervention, the Philippine forces in the KIG would have probably been annihilated in no time at all.

well, i did.

in fact i have been thinking about it since that time when the reds stole that shole from us.

nonetheless, that's based on how i see it.

you maybe right after all. there could be other reasons why he opted to back off and bow down to the Chinese.

but i am still not satisfied with such reasoning, though.

I've read Sun Tzu's book also.

The Mischief reef takeover is a different thing.

Reclaiming it is impossible now. :exactly:

What China did is the result of Sun Tzu's teachings.

Ramos' action ain't backed by the concept stated in the "Art of War".

It's plain misjudgement. :exactly:

In fact Ramos just allowed China to further stretch its magnanimity over the Spratly's.

:dunno:

Actually Ramos did assert himself while in office (that is in our own right)

China Makes Move On Spratlys

Webmaster Note: Recall that China backed down in regards to the Spratlys when the Philippine government made overtures to the United States for aid. However, the United States has NOT taken a stand against the Chinese taking over the South China Sea; this is where a future conflict between the United States and China is projected to take place.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Monday, January 04, 1999



By Bill Gertz

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

China is building military facilities on islands in the South China Sea some 800 miles from the mainland as part of an aggressive grab for undersea energy resources and control over strategic waterways, according to a senior House member.

"The U.S. government must end its silence about the Chinese military buildup in the Spratlys," said Rep. Dana Rohrabacher after a recent flight to the contested Spratly Islands on a Philippine military C-130 plane. "It is dangerous for the administration to continue to hide this issue from the Congress and the American people," he said. "Now is the time to impress upon the Chinese the need to end their aggression toward their neighbors."

Mr. Rohrabacher, a member of the House International Relations Committee and chairman of the Science subcommittee on space and aeronautics, discussed the Chinese military activities in an interview after returning from a fact-finding tour to the Middle East and Southeast Asia from Nov. 30 to Dec. 11.

"There's obviously a strategy here," the California Republican said. "By claiming territory at Mischief Reef, the Communist Chinese are not only going to be able to control one of the most important waterways in the world, but they are also in a position to grab huge energy resources." During his Dec. 10 flight over the disputed area, Mr. Rohrabacher said he saw "an alarming Chinese military buildup" on the reef that included three warships anchored together and construction of several military installations.

Mischief Reef is one of several dozen low-lying coral reefs and rocky islets -- some barely above the water surface -- that make up the Spratlys. The islands are claimed in whole or in part by China, the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Malaysia and Brunei. Recently, activities at Mischief Reef prompted confrontations between Beijing and Manila. The congressman is urging Rep. Benjamin A. Gilman, New York Republican and chairman of the International Relations Committee, to hold hearings on the Mischief Reef dispute. From German and Japanese aggression in the past, "we should learn that appeasement of dictators ultimately leads to great conflicts," Mr. Rohrabacher said.

China should not have any presence in the Spratlys because "this isn't their territory," he said. "This is at the very least disputed territory and probably could be looked at as Philippine territory at best."

The Philippine government has said the islands are within the 200-mile "exclusive economic zone" established under the United Nations Law of the Sea Convention. Beijing has said it is building shelters on the reefs for Chinese fishermen.

Mr. Rohrabacher said the presence of Chinese warships on Mischief Reef and the construction of military facilities indicates the Chinese are seeking more than fishing shelters. "They are building a fortified base on Mischief Reef," he said.

The warships were identified as two Chinese Navy tank-landing ships used for amphibious warfare, and one "auxiliary" or support ship. All three had helicopter landing pads over the sterns.

Some China specialists have said the Chinese military presence on the Spratlys is a worrisome sign of Chinese expansionism. Military intelligence analysts said China's strategy calls for setting up an area of influence along a north-south chain of islands that extends up to 1,000 miles from China's coast.

A Chinese government spokesman reacted harshly to Mr. Rohrabacher's visit to the Spratlys and charged the lawmaker with "meddling" in the dispute with Manila over Mischief Reef.

"We're opposed to the threat of force and the result of force to resolve the differences," Foreign Ministry spokesman Sun Yuxi told reporters. "In resolving divergences ... we hope to seek a resolution through friendly consultations in a peaceful way."

Both China and the Philippines are seeking access to large oil and gas deposits believed to be located underneath the sea throughout the region.

China also appears to want a military base to control strategic waterways near Mischief Reef. "It strategically borders the Palawan Passage which leads directly to the Taiwan Strait and links the passage of oil and commodity transport ships from the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean to Japan and Korea," Mr. Rohrabacher said.

Mr. Rohrabacher said untapped energy resources in the Spratlys are vital to Philippine government economic development plans. A pipeline from the area to the Philippines would fund Manila's anti-poverty plans, he said.

"With any dictatorship -- I don't care if it's the Chinese Communists or any others -- if you give them the ability to bully their neighbors, that's what they are going to do," Mr. Rohrabacher said.

The Chinese could use force to take control of the entire Spratlys "if the United States doesn't take a strong stand," he said.

Japan occupied the Spratlys until the end of World War II and sovereignty was never resolved after the Japanese left. China seized the nearby Paracel Islands in 1974 and then took control of six atolls in the Spratlys from Vietnam in 1978. In 1988, Chinese and Vietnamese navies clashed at Johnson Reef, a battle in which two Vietnamese gunboats were sunk and 70 persons killed.

In 1995, the Philippine military discovered Chinese-built concrete markers on Mischief Reef -- some 170 miles from the southern Philippine island of Palawan. The Philippine air force bombed and destroyed the markers and the navy arrested about 20 Chinese fishermen in 1995. Mr. Rohrabacher said he was upset that the State Department, which has announced its policy of seeking a strategic partnership with China, tried to block his aerial inspection of the reef.

Officials at the U.S. Embassy in Manila tried to prevent his visit to the area on several occasions, a congressional staff member said. A Nov. 25 embassy cable to the State Department stated, "We do not believe it would be in the U.S. interest for the [congressional delegation] to travel to Palawan, since the presence of a highly visible senior U.S. government official on the island at this time would be taken as signifying more U.S. involvement in the current dispute between the Philippines and China over Mischief Reef than U.S. policy supports."

Mr. Rohrabacher and two aides were held up for a day before making the short flight from Palawan to see Mischief Reef. They were allowed to go after senior Philippine leaders approved the visit. No U.S. diplomatic or intelligence officials went on the flight.

Ooops! Sorry about that, here's the source for that post.


http://www.pacificnet.net/jue/chinanews/docs/990104b.html

That's why we must not rely on the US too much for our external defense needs.

We still have to resolve that concern on the Spratly's.

The US has long been saying that it will maintain a hands-off policy on conflicts affecting disputed areas such that of the Spratly's.

And that's why President Bush told our congress that we must invest in our military if we want to have a strong armed forces.

That's the problem when we elect idiots into Congress. :exactly:

Eh paano naman, mabait ang mga iyun dahil bida nga sila sa pelikula. Mga pogi, magaganda at kakyut-kiyut. Imagine, hindi lang ako pinakain at kinamayan noong silay nangangampanya, binigyan pa ako nang pera at pumayag pa silang mag pa photo taking kaming dalawa. Wow!

And don't forget, nagpaayos pa sila nang mga daan bago lumapit ang eleksiyon. ANG BAIT TALAGA NI SIR / MA'AM! HE-HE! :bs: :armycheers:

sows...

alam naman natin ang kalakaran.

sa 100 piso na winaldas nila ay sampung beses and laki naman ng kanilang nanakawin sa kaban ng bayan.

kaya di tayo umuunlad at nilalampaso pa ng ating katabing bansa. :armysad:

It still baffles me why we elect people who do not intend to fight for our interests. Congress represents its own interest not of the people.

The PRC have a legislative body, the "National People's Congress", but unlike any other legislative bodies in the world they only meet once a year, they have a limited amount of time to spend on the floor and vote on issues. Thus they, only queue the key policy directions for voting, they do not even argue on the floor, they lay their business and vote for its favor or disfavor. Our legislators is so martian! They weild power as if it is their birth right and totally forgetting it is a priviledge given to them by their constituents. And the most annoying thing, they can not even obey traffic, how much obey the will of the people.

you know the ''masa'' is already tired of putting their bets on these intelligent ''kuno'', ''mataas ang pinag-aralan'' candidates.

they are so desperate now that they seem to think that it will be better if they elect anybody else but who possesses the ''idol ng masa'' image into office.

look at how the congressmen managed to retain their pork barrel fund?

they act and talk as if the public is just their servant and that they have the power to lord over us... and waste the people's money.

DAMN :armytwisted:

IM TIRED OF THINKING ABOUT THIS BREED OF DUMB AND FOOLISH GREEDY PIGS LURKING IN THE HALLS OF CONGRESS AND THE SENATE. :bs:

let's just get back to discussing military issues instead. :exactly:

hmmmmm...why not buy MIRVs and blast them out of the sky?

He he. Akala ko ako lang bwisit na bwisit sa mga tongressmen and senatongs natin for disobeying even the most basic laws. Sarap ng buhay nila. The SONA event parang pasosyalan party lang. Yuck! No wonder our country is still in the pits.

Anyway, parang tama si Apo na i-abolish ang Senate at Congress back then. Useless pigs naman sila.

No firm idea why Ramos the Faker didn't do more action in resisting the installation of those illegal Chinese structures. And he has the gall to opine on GMAs actions when he was worse than her in the first place.

tayo lang ata ang may pinaka mahinang armed force dun sa spratly e

WW2 era boats, floating Vietnam era cans, 3rd hand brand new tubs.
What exactly will the proud men of the navy do when, let's say, the country goes to war against china?

Have you guys read tom clancy's book about a possible confrontation concerning the spratly's?
I'm pretty sure you guys know how old and what kinds of vessels our navy has.

So what exactly can the navy do besides sink and put dents in water?

whats the title of the book? man, I really need to have it

crap, ill have to go check it again.
it's easy to find in NBS.

ill get back to you on this one...

im quite surprised there are no replies from the navy men. :(
I was hoping for valiant replies amidst insurmountable odds. :crawling:

Ahhh, Elraen...please stop reading Tom Clancy's stupid books. It makes you ask stupid questions. :armyroleyes:

by the way, the Phil. Navy has many bomb-carrying dolphins trained to attack intruding warships, and you will not read this in Tom Clancy books.

The book is entitled SSN: Strategies of Submarine Warfare.

I have mine..

It follows the missions of USS Cheyenne in a war with China precipitated by their invasion of the disputed Spratly Islands. Nothing about the AFP is included in the book however, except for a brief mention about Philippine forces being overran in the Spratlys..

A great book really.. :thumb:

:btt:

What can the Navy do in a shooting war with China? Even the unitiated can foretell what would happen, really.

Our Navy can throw a few pebbles at the Chinese while the Chinese can shoot back with lots of boulders. :lollol:

Our government would ask for help from the U.S. anyway, should hostilities begin. The government knew all too well that the Americans might just be there to help us all along. Maybe that's why the government is not keen enough on modernizing the AFP because the Americans would "just be there when we need them".. There's too much dependence.. Just my opinion anyway..

In my own point of view, our Navy is just a mere standoff force, barely keeping the pain in the enemy's ass before the real muscle (U.S. Navy) would come to save the day..

:crawling:

It's sad to say the current PN doesn't stand a chance against most of the better PLAN warships because they are equipped with SSMs like the Russian-made Sunburn missile on the 2-4 Sorenemmy Class Guided Missile Destroyers China bought from Russia, that can destroy any PN warships before they can even close the range with any Chinese/PLAN warships.

If you wanna read a fantasy scenario where the PN stands even a meager chance against the PLAN/People's Liberation Army Navy, then you must read the beginning parts of the novel Sky Masters by Dale Brown, where a Chinese Admiral is losing badly in a Spratlys skirmish with the PN warships and PAF Phantom jets (yes the PAF has F4 Phantoms in this fantasy scenario!) and since the Chinese Admiral doesn't wanna lose face, he launches a nuke to destroy the PN warships!

:headbang:

I also read SSN by Tom Clancy but I don't think you should read it if you wanna get a realistic insight into the PN's capabilities since it focuses mainly on the exploits of the US Los Angeles Class fast-attack submarine USS Cheyenne and different sub scenarios pitting this sub against PLAN and Russian subs, as well as PLAN/PLAAF air and PLAN surface warships. The PN isn't even mentioned in Clancy's book.

The PN and the Philippine Marines are mentioned briefly in the novel DragonStrike: The Millenium War written by two journalists, but they get a big a**-whooping by PLAAF Su-27s and PLA Te Zhong Bu Dui commandos already waiting to ambush a Marine landing party. The fictional PN amphibious assault ship Cagayan De Oro is sunk by PLAAF air and the Philippine Marines also suffer heavy casualties as they try to retake a PLA-held island/reef complex.

On a more leisurely note, a realistic sub simulator game based on the SSN book came out in the late 90s and only works on a Windows 95 OS. Anyone want my copy? hehehe...

Speaking of realistic assessments of PN capabilities, here is an excerpt from a paper written by an N1 staffer -- a PN Captain -- as part of his academic requirements for GSC. The paper was written in 2001.



There is more to modernization than just getting new ships. The AFP's problems are unbelievably complex.

hey, Tom clancy is a great writer :nono:
in fact, one of his work, the hunt for red october is great...even the US president admitted he is a fan of Clancy

WTTFF? :armyeek:

Some previous thoughts and discussions you can dig up in these threads

The China Threat

SPRATLYS: future battlegrounds?

the philippines navy still in spratlys

Right equipment for the Spratly sentinels

RP-China defense cooperation

Sleeping with the enemy

People in AFP/PN are presenting more about the complexity of their problem not the solution. No wonder AFP modernization program is slower than turtle pace.

How they will acquire the necessary knowledge or skill in Modern Naval warfare if PN navy officer never give a strong reason why we need a Modern ship.

Higher level of training is vital to PN specially if they have in their inventory a Modern Ship with different array of sensor and electronics on board.
What knowledge or skill our PN Officer and Crew do have in manning a modern ship if they are just operating a vintage world war 2 Naval ship???

Do PN need to train first before acquiring a modern ship or Purchase a modern ship and train them all the essential skills to operate the modern ship that we acquired.???

cheers :armycheers:

Thank God for mods like saver :thumb:

The Navy could finally start purchasing anti-ship missiles!

Thanks for the books MSantor. :banana:

And for the links mister Mod. ^_^

hmmm... but what if the US abandoned us?

I pity the dolphins ..

Ya we can build ships i know we can but hnd tyo maka produce ng systems

You are right Lorenzo. Philippine navy and Whole Military might is the weakest in the ASEAN Country, even Lao's whick is poorer is more capable force than AFP.

ColdDeadFish,
The real power of the Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party lies not within the National People's Congress, but within the Standing Committee of the Chinese Politburo of the CCP. Those 5-6 leaders, including the President and the Premier as well as other top CCP leaders, pretty much decide the general policy in which the party heads in, while the rest of the party and non-party state leaders flesh out the details. It would be scary to think that this Politburo also has a direct link to China's nuclear missile brigades- or the PLA's Second Artillery- known as Di Er Da Pao and can order them to a higher level of readiness without consulting the PLA's Central Military Commission or even the General Staff Department of the PLA.

The fact that the NPC meets only once a year is partially a symbolic gesture, but the Politburo always have the final say when it comes to true political power within the party and the PRC govt.

Although such an authoritarian regime as the CCP allows trade with the West and Japan to continue, one must always be wary of any regime that turns a blinds eye to human rights abuses being committed within that country and has a low regard for the individual freedoms of its own citizens.

I would prefer that Philippines switch its "One China Policy" from that of recognizing Beijing to recognizing Taipei instead, but of course, Manila chose to recognize Beijing a long time ago not only because China is a bigger market for RP trade, but because the RP govt. usually follows Washington's lead when it comes to dealing with China, since their "One China Policy" is about the same as that of RP.

The RP could get God knows how many Chiang-Ching-Kuo Indigenous Defense Fighters produced in Taiwan as well as hand-me-down F5Es for a bargain price if only Manila recognized Taipei, but of course the Manila govt. is just afraid of angering Beijing. But one cannot ignore that both Manila and Taipei's fear of Chinese military expansion is a common interest, though the pragmatism of the current policy remains in effect.

Ramos knew what was he was doing. IF we kill those chinese occupants, what would u think they gonna do to us?

FVR did start the 15 yr $16 billion dollar modernization plan that were unfortunately derailed when we got hit by the 1997 Asian Flu. Then corruptions made it worst afterwards. I still believe that if it weren't because of the asian flu, natuloy na yung modernization plan natin, pati yung mga magnanakaw sana ng pera natin eh madidisorient kasi parang tren sana yung $16B dollar na mabilis umaandar! Kaya lang...

So I say today we lay down, regroup, rearm, and fight another day. But when its gonna happen? That's the question that need to be answered SOON. :ssalute:

Imagine kapag hindi sumabog ang Pinatubo plus yung big earthquake sa Pilipinas. Laki na siguro budget ng AFP para sa modernization. Minalas lang talaga tayo plus yung asian finc\ancial crisis. Hindi naman lahat siguro kasalanan ng goverment natin kasi meron mga nangyayari na hindi maiwasan.