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AFP sets new bid for new helicopters

Monday, December 31, 2007
Philippine Star

The Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) has decided to disregard an earlier bidding for suppliers of night-capable attack helicopters after President Arroyo ordered the release of P5 billion for the purchase of more aircraft, a ranking military official said.

“The bids and awards committee has decided to conduct another bidding to ensure that we get the same brand of helicopters,” AFP vice chief Lt. Gen. Antonio Romero said.

The P5 billion that was released by the President is part of the funding for the capability upgrade program of the AFP, intended to modernize the ill-equipped military to enable it to meet the 2010 deadline set by their commander-in-chief to crush the 39-year-old communist insurgency and the al-Qaeda-linked Abu Sayyaf.

In an interview, Romero said they are set to conduct another bidding for the procurement of night-capable attack helicopters that would be worth P3.2 billion instead of P1.2 billion, which was earlier earmarked for its purchase.

Romero said the AFP also intends to buy utility aircraft such as the Vietnam War-vintage UH1H Huey that would be worth P3 billion.

Romero, who is also chair of the AFP modernization board, explained that getting the same brand of helicopters would be more cost efficient in terms of spare parts and training for pilots. He further said it would not be advisable to get aircraft made by different manufacturers even if they have the same specifications.

“We were advised that it is not good to get different brands of helicopters even if it is a carbon copy of the other,” he said.

Romero, however, did not specify how many attack and utility helicopters could be bought by the military with that amount, but he said out of the P5 billion, P3 billion would be used to purchase cargo helicopters, while the rest would be used for attack helicopters.

Romero added that those who have earlier joined the bidding and placed a higher price for the military hardware would make their costs lower for them to win the contract.

He said that the utility helicopters that would be purchased by the AFP should be able to lift at least a squad of soldiers, for troop insertion during combat, as well as to airlift casualties and bring supplies for frontline forces.

In a separate interview, Air Force chief Lt. Gen. Horacio Tolentino said McDonnel Douglas, a foreign supplier, won the earlier bidding for six units of night capable attack helicopters.

He said he is not certain if the setting aside of the earlier bidding would pose legal problems if the winner pursues the contract, which, according to him, is in its post-qualification stage.

But Tolentino agreed that it would be wise to buy the same kind of aircraft with the money as it would be more cost efficient for the AFP. – James Mananghaya

uhmm..... sounds nice... but with 2 billion out of th 5 billion amount,... IT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH.

WHAT ATTACK CHOPPER and HOW MANY OF IT CAN 2 BILLION PESOS BUY US? :dunno:

2? 3? :bs:

Why not just reallocate the 20 billion intended for more foot soldiers to the purchase of more attack helicopters instead?

guess no chinese aircraft for us hehe..

why cant our govt let our airforce invest in a new flatform? still the huey and the little birds?

Something's amiss with the figures in this newspaper report.

It says:

Which would be a good thing in a way because that's a P2 billion increase for attack helos. But IIRC, it was P2 billion in the first place, not 1.2.
But later, it says:

So it's actually P2 billion for attack helos?

Ano ba talaga.

On another point...

That's a good number of additional Hueys. If at about $1M per refurbished Huey, that would mean more than 60 units.

Ok. For the attack gunships, i caculated $8.13 million allowance for 1 AH-1Z cobra, ah este for 1 gunship, so its an increase of about $ 4M? Thats probably including the parts and maintenance of each gunships.

They may still be considering the Cobra gunships if they are still planning to purchase 6 units. How much is 1 cobra gunship again? Anyone? Tnx!

Meanwhile, for the utility choppers, yup they most likely will acquire UH-1 HueyII or some other huey Griffin type, if its not a blackhawk.

Isn't 1 squad? 1 squad is like 12, right?

Good thing they cancelled it, and i hope they do a better job this time!

:thumb:

with this latest news, i am wondering if any military contractor will still take the AFP and the Philippine government seriously. :demon:

this is great news, additional 2B pesos for more attack helis. i think the cobra will come into scene with that amount of maney, or the purchase oF the MD530 from just 8 to 12 attack helis?but if the PAF is looking for the more viable attack helis, i suggest the total packege must be considered carefully. if theyl go for same contractor, then maybe the cobra and the huey will win this one.

getting AH-1S cobras is good enough for me, though the MD530 is more economical in terms of price per unit. Getting 50 UH1's then converting 50 of the cureent hueys to huey II standards!that will really be agreat deal for us.go PAF! :fire: :fire:

AH-1S?



I got that photo from another forum. It ain't look bad eh? That one is a complete package to annihilate the extremists. :thumb:

thats a bad ass heli spearhead. looks real mean too.logistically, its the best alternative. It shares the same engine with the huey II.its newer than the AH1G's and has enough whistles for COIN ops. the "z"and the "W" models are a bit complicated. remember that the "S" was made with close gound attack supprt, while the "Z" and the "W' are either anti-tank, or marinized attack helis. We dont need much of this capabilities. the S is the best. i hope it will win the new bidding

as for the utility helis, HUEY II 's are simply the best. new twin engines on tested platforms. getting some of the bigger bell 412's and UH1N's also are what im looking for. forget about the z-9, untested platforms and a bit odd for COIN specs. it reminds me of the s76 helis. thats the worst heli we procured for ops, underpowered, too sophisticated and hard to maintain for a gunship utility heli. its best for SAR since speed is key. the huey's are simply the best rugged kick ass utility helis ever. the cobra also will make a lot of rebs nightmares come true. they can run but they cant hide! :fire:

BTW, the Cobras & the Hueys we used have the same engines right? so, it will be easy to procure :thumb:

Adrian,

Easy, huh?

:armyroleyes:

So your logic is that if another country uses the same equipment, that makes it easier? Alright- the UK uses Scorpions along with the PA- let's get more!! :armyroleyes: Then the British salesman calls you up and says "Will that be cash or check?"

Having the same equipment or components for any vehicle, aircraft or weapons platform will only make MAINTENANCE easier, but not PROCUREMENT.

Why am I not surprised if this "new bid" ends up with the AFP getting more hand-me-down Hueys?

Hey That Pic looks familiar. hehehehehehe :demon:

Lets buy Russian helicopters! :p

I'm just looking forward to the new choppers, hope its something that will give more bang for the bucks.

wuz up msantor?!?

the americans are showing off this ah-1s cobras to us during their recent airshow at dmia grounds... maybe they are still pushing us to buy this stuff!

what i can propose for our afp is to follow israel's style of combatting their own insurgencies... we can be using advance gunships such as this cobra, with some help from hardcore light air-to-ground combat aircrafts such as the super tucanos.

:armycheers:

msantor,
the argument of wise logistics and commonality of supplier and parts is just one factor of procurement.of course the whole package is the most considered of all, as we know, were always tight on the buget. but we dont need to compromise quantity for quality and maintenance. and besides, if we didnt like their products in the past, why the hck are we looking up to using their new ones.

take a look at the hueys, there still the best utility helis we have, and even the UAF is still using them and upgraded to huey II's.the AH1 cobra has been bought by the Thais army with 4 of these being used in the south. the huey and textron has been tried and tested, and if theres any other supplier that can match that commitment and record, heck their welcome!

the problem with the Brits is theyre too much into political strings on their war products. russia will be good, but i thinkl were still not as strong as indonesia or vietnam to change our doctrinal standards on equipment to piss them up. what im syaing is, given the circumstances nad the past experiences, i think the PAF should consider the package,procurement and the future. go huey II :fire: GO cobra! :fire:

Even if the deal smelled fishy, I would still have went for AH6es (AKA MG530Fs).

Unfortunately some journalists (or well-placed trying hard hacks who should put more effort into research before submitting it to their Eds) thought the whole deal smelled fishy due to alleged overpricing.

But then the fact that a dark cloud of suspicion behind such a deal is enough to cast doubt on whether it was legit or not.

Someone better informed on defense matters should look into that previous MG530F bid.

My gut sense tells me the local contractor who won in the bid is of the KKK (Kaibigan/Kumpare/Kamag-anak ni General/ASEC/Admiral) variety that seeks to dominate the seedy world of DND procurements.

Moving forward,

If the Little Bird (or Dragonfly) is seen to be off the list of contenders, I'm still rooting for a Scout Helo (something like the OH6, Kiowa, or even heaven forbid,m the Z-9). Remember the sort of enemies we are fighting in this war.

The ASG and NPA are small lightly-armed, highly mobile units who use their command of the terrain, the darkness of night and the trust the locals as camouflage.
They do not have armor and AA systems (especially manpads and AAA)

Gold-plated dedicated attack helos like Super Cobra or Mangusta will have to wait until the Insurgencies have been put on an end and our Economy is stable enough to sustain the upkeep of sucj systems

I disagree with u tora.

The Cobra is better than the Little Birds when it comes to fighting the extremists. And the Cobra can also play the scout role because of its advance forward-nose FLIR system and using its remote-control nose-turret gatling gun to shoot the target with precise accuracy, unlike the OH-6, the pilot has to manuever it again just to make a striping attack, and its an inaccurate.

Using striping attack can expose the bird more from enemy small gunfires, unlike shooting it from afar like the cobras, without the need of manuevering it closer to the target and expose its belly, tail, rotors, and the cockpit.

In short, lugi tayo sa little birds because of its limited purpose, although its a nice chopper too.

That's why we need to buy the AH-1 Cobra, because of its multi-role purpose. It maybe more expensive but very useful to combat the guerilla warfare.

Also, the Cobra has armor-plating unlike the Defender or the MD530F.

It carries more rockets, and it has laser-guided missiles for destroying vehicles, buildings and bunkers.

The cost of the Cobra is worth it.

Nonetheless, i still support buying more less-capable birds like the MD530s for deployment in the forward bases.

The heavy-punchers will then be deployed in strategic areas.

The idea is to provide a ready pool of attack choppers the soldiers can depend on anytime and while the Super Cobra, the heavy punchers, are still on their way.

My wish is that instead of the MD530, we deploy the Super Cobras in our forward bases. Then for the strategic bases, we park the Apaches.

In fact, if the PAF considers buying the Mangusta, with the current cost today, i'd suggest they get the Apache Longbow instead.

Overpricing is not only an issue to those little bird (dragonfly MD-530F) but what other BETTER enhancement does it offer to our MD-520 DEFENDER.

Is it better engine with more power on climb rate and speed.??Better electronic package to make that dragonlfy(MD-530F) night capable attack helo??

What requirement does PAF needs to their possible candidate for Night attack helos??

No matter what kind of uprated or enhance version of MD-500 series does PAF buy, still the platform are the same., which is small and limited in terms of range and amount of firepower it can carry in the battlefield.

MD-530 is more economical than Cobra in terms of price per unit. Is that what you said??

How about the performance required for both helicopter. Ah-1S is many times more capable than little bird MD-530F.

A Cobra helicopter can carry a maximum of 76 rounds of 2.75 inch rocket in 4 pods(19 tube), while MD-530 is only limited to Two pods of rocket launcher having 14 rounds.

In other words, it will require to fly 5 or 6 dragonfly (MD-530F) to deliver the same amount of firepower and lethality of what a single AH-1S Cobra can do on a typical Close Air Support mission to our troops.

Maybe MD-530F is cheaper or economical in terms of price per unit,

but when you put in the air 6 MD-530 just to level the same amount of firepower and performance of a Single AH-1 Cobra is really a big money eater.

You spend a lot of money on flying 6 MD-530 that will require 12 pilots than A single Cobra helicopter with only 2 pilots.

I agree with you EDWIN. i used to be content to get those MD530's to win, alam mo naman,basta sa akin basta may bago for the pAF, mas ok kesa puro salita lang. But yeah, the cobra, even the S model and not te sophisticated ones like the Z or W ones, will in the long run deliver more bang like 6 of these scout helis. even though its FLIR, alot of MD530 's with FLIR wont bring damage much than 1 FLIR capable AH1S, g\fully armed to the teet di ba?Rebs are not known to do main engagments, only skirmished except when their camp is raided. and besides, we already have 17 of the MD520's, they can provide close support, say 6 of these with 2 Cobras. These will minimize expense on less number but more capable birds than having more less capable birds all with FLIR. :fire:

Good point there, edwin.

BTW, as you all know, that the Cobra is a family member of the Huey helos, so its most likely this is the model that most of our military officials are dreaming of. I wonder though why they initially settled for the OH6's.

Lets cross our fingers... Hope for the best... Expect for the... :armycheers:

Edwin has a point there. The Cobra is the better machine Pound-per-Pound based on its technical specs. It can deliver ordinance enough for more than one Little bird but is still as fast and nimble.

However, the reason why I would rather have Little Birds than Cobras is that it is the best solution proportionate to threats we are facing. It would be hard for tax payers to swallow that their hard-earned money better spent on overhauling the public education system or other social services is used on a Multimillion-Peso heavily-armored missile-armed Helicopters for use against lightly-armed insurgents

That brings us to why most likely we'll end with AH6es at the end of the day - Political Costs. Provided we can afford to buy at least 3 Cobras there are the political issues involved especially we are buying from a nation with one of the tightest mechanisms for foreign weapons sales. While they sell arguably the best stuff in the market, the export of such systems to other nations will have to have Congressional approval. It won't be easy given that despite being a major Non-NATO Ally and adherent to Democratic Principles, we have a nasty rep for corruption and Human Rights Abuse.

I honestly think you got lost.

I dont think you totally understood edwin's point.

Considering cost and requirement i suggest a mix of these two.

MD530F at the forward bases for fast deployment.

Cobras at strategic bases for high intensity battles and for special operations or air support to SpecOps troops hunting high-value targets and terrorists.

We can also send in the Cobras when the MD53F arent enough to give the soldiers the needed support.

MD530F

- FLIR
- rocket pods
- 7.62mm M134 Minigun or 50.cal gun


Super Cobra

- FLIR
- bigger rocket pods
- 20mm Gatling gun
- Helfire or TOW missiles
- Sidewinders ( necessary for those parked in Villamor)



M134 Miniguns for MD530F



http://dillonaero.com/content/p/9/pid/2/ca...htweight_M134DT

Lightweight M134DT


The M134D-T is Dillon's newly designed Titanium Gatling Gun for Weight Critical Applications. Dillon undertook a complete redesign of the standard, steel M134D to meet the needs of users operating helicopters at high altitudes and under hot conditions, where aircraft weight is critical. Skeletonized components and Titanium were combined to reduce the guns weight by nearly 20 percent, or about 12 - 15 pounds per gun. This was accomplished while retaining the Gatling's outstanding performance and reliability.

Titanium components include the Rotor, Housing, DAFD-2001 Feeder/Delinker, and Barrel Clamp/Flash Suppressor.

Weights

Fixed Forward Fire: 45.1 lbs
Crew Served Gun: 53.1 lbs


BTW, the Army made deal for exchanging the Miniguns for the guns taken from the mothballed F8s.

So , the Air Force have several Miniguns if this arrangement pushed through.

Also, they can simply buy more to retrofit our MD520/530 choppers.

Look at this;


N530 MG



http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....0&#entry1249346

It's got FLIR, radar, guided missiles, aside from the usual 50 cal gun.

If we are just confined to have an attack chopper like MD-530 then the configuration above in the picture would be best for PAF night capable attack Helos.

PAF should mount more Miniguns to their new Attack chopper as the guns itself is extremely accurate due to its high cyclic rate of fire. More suppresive firepower.

Since Gatling guns are more effective and more reliable
than conventional “gas operated” guns, fewer weapons are
required to cover a target area. Fewer guns mean fewer
bodies to man them and fewer platforms to support them.
This translates into big cost savings.

SOURCE
http://dillonaero.com/docs/M134_General_info_history.pdf

Nope.

The best way to do is still buy atleast 6 AH-1S or Z.

Then upgrade our existing fleet of MG520's w/ advance avionics, electronic target-aquisition system w/ FLIR pods, and add some better wapon system to it.

:thumb:

well, good combination spearhead, mI'll hope PAF chose both helos, MG-530F as Armed recon, While AH-1F (or any Cobra series)as the big gunner. Includes A-29 Super Tucanos as Bomb delivery for final punch. :fire:

get it man!!!! touchdown!!! :thumb:

agreed adrian and spearhead. reports indicate that we have only 9 MD520's operational ot of the 17 airframes. Get 6 AH1S Cobras for front attack ops, and get at least allexisting MD520 gunships operational plus upgrades for better firepower!we dont need additional new airframes, heck our hangars are even stuffed!if we still have ore legroom?bring at least 16 Broncos out of the 22 airframes and upgrade it with hellfire rockets. Then get at least a dozen of the 17 S211 airframes operational with similar upgrades like that of the 4 upgraded A versions. why bother buying a lot of new frames of existing platform in inventory?ezcept for the new Cobra, lets bring all our existing asstes even at 70% operational rate with heck a lot of upgrades.cheaper but realistic! :pushup:

yup. also we dont have to retire the broncos yet cuz they are still usefull as a new coin aircraft such as the tucanos (if ever we will get some) or any gunships. all we need to do for now is to upgrade the broncos and the MG520's. and we need to make sure that we will take care of their maitenance... if we do this then we will be fine...

:armycheers:

yeah, instead of spending a lot of new training for a new platform, just do this on the Cobra, then upgrade ad modernize existing assets and thereby increasing current fleets to operational status. we dont need to study this birds, we just have to fly em and shokkt! our existing inventory of birds as COIN aircrafts, in my opinion are still good up to 5 years from now. come 2012, that would be the time for us to gradually replace all our existing platforms with newer ones. ALX supertucano replacing the broncos, more AH1W for the MD520, ALCA jets replacing the S211's, bell 412's or UH-IN for the current hueys. :armycheers:

You thinking what i thinking man!!! :thumb:

Courtesy of Franning from Opus' forums

Despite its involvement in alleged irregularities I am still confident it is the best helicopter for soft threats namely the ASG, CPP NPA and possibly the MILF who rely more on mobility, command of terrain and the support of the local population rather than advanced weapon systems like ManPADSs to gain an upper hand.

From a technical standpoint, it offers very good advantages namely speed, maneuverability, low maintenance costs and a durable frame. Its egg-shaped fuselage gives good crew survivability in crashes.

We can also get these into the battlefield much faster as our pilots already have experience flying 520s which reduces the transition training cycle.

Though if Boeing would like to join in the re-bid if ever there would be, it would have to pair up with another local partner to clear the company of wrongdoing.

I'm guessing the reason why the US Army's AH6es (used by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) (160th SOAR (A)) based at Fort Campbell are unavailable because they were deployed (secretly) to some other part of the world like Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia.

1) iirc, GMA required that only new units be acquired as night-capable attack helicopter. This would rule out the refurbished AH-1F/S/W.

2) What attack helicopter could Agusta and Poland's Swidnik have offered at the same price range as MD-530F ($4M)?

Also,

So a team was sent to test the MD-530F and it wasn't there? What unprofessional BS is that.

If say a US company flew in to MD's facility looking to buy 6 units and the bird wasn't available for testing as agreed upon, well that would've just been unacceptable, right? Meanwhile, they can't accommodate Third Worlders and we still buy their products.

It's also the civil MD-530F, not the AH-6 used by the US SOAR, so it should've been available.

The militarized MD530F may be a safe, if unimaginative, choice but the above incident is just pathetic.

yes tirad, it would be pathetic not to have actual test flights done.

Well, i just hope this latest incident would usher into the reentry of the AH1S as a candidate. Remeber an earlier report, that the president increaeds the procurement price of this helos to almost double, so this means the AH1S is on site.Imagine getting an MD530F for $4M!!!Pathetic sons of bitches!garapalan pa imbis na tumulong na sana tayo para mapadali ang procurement! :fire:

about Swidnik, i hate to say this, but im not that impressed with their upgraded MI9 heli either, it looks bad,clearly an old design upgraded with new technology, and it looks more like a utility heli than an attack one!that Polish craft maybe good for SARS requirememnts as te Coast guard in a report is eyeing to buy 5 of this helis, but for attack heli?i dont think so, parang hind sya na mailiit lang tinganan.

One thing about a provision of factory new attack helis, i think they shouldnt be too strict on this clause of a completely new heli. Kasi even though its an old platform ang offer, basta upgraded, and basically maganda pa talaga sa capability and maintenance, lets go for it! the COBRA wouldnt have any new platforms, but getting an upgraded heli like at least the S model, if not the W or Z ones, would be heck a lot of a goos attack heli to us than any MD530F :fire:

SCARP the RIGGED MD530F DEAL!!!GO FOR THE COBRA!!! :fire: