Mga peeps, I need your help on this issue. I initiated the idea that the Philippines use the present requirement as an opportunity to re-start its aviation industry. The F-20 Tigershark was shelved when the F-16 became the premier choice as the lightweight fighter of the free world. But, the production tooling and manufacturing jigs were still present and were are recent as the late 90's offered to India as their replacement to their aging MiG-21s. India had chosen to decline the offer thus the F-20 again goes shelved. On that Indian deal, Northrop Grumman had offered to completely transfer the blueprints, manufacturing jigs and production tooling for it. And this is what I'm angling on.

I've also made some small headway with our senators and the office of the president. As luck would have it, Sen. Pimentel and Sen. Jinggoy Estrada were quite supportive of the idea (well, Sen. Pimentel was more open on that while Sen. Jinggoy will take a good look on it). The office of the president, through one of the presidential staff, asked me to forward my proposal for the idea. I had to create a new draft as the old one went with my system when it gone kaput. Northrop Grumman was also receptive to the idea as they have sent me a non-disclosure form to sign and send back - I have yet to do so as I believe the moment is not right. That the situation may go to the dogs and any such positive moves before such a moment may just go to waste or ill-used.

I'm asking then if any of you know of any AFP official who would support this idea. I've tried with others but only Northrop Grumman gave a response (no reply from IAI for their Lavi after contacting IAI and the local Israeli embassy). Ang advice kasi this proposal might go to the trash if no military guy or gal of rank supports it.

Hindi rin confined itong proposal just to the F-20. Since an air defense network would also require support from other sectors major program ito. And it is also an answer to our economic situation. The ticket to afford these ay counter-trade. That way both ends benefit, now and in the future. At sa local end naman I've already an idea how to meet the requirements - workshare.

Post na lang ninyo dito yun possible contacts if meron. Currently, checking up if any good and honest congressman would support this idea.

Sa points nga pala bakit F-20 pinili ko ito ay dahil it would be quite easy for our F-5 pilots and maintenance to transition to it. It is also within our tech level as hindi siya totally fly-by-wire. And capable pa naman yun design niya especially if upgraded with the latest tech available. Plus, there's a good upgrade market for F-5 users which we can tap. At dahil marami pang potential ito despite what many may say otherwise (a production X-29 version for example) it has a definite future. Kung i-consider rin ang nagawa sa 3rd generation F-16 redesigned to be a 4th generation piece then we could do so rin with this. Especially with the production tooling, jigs and tech transfer.

First of all, old technology. We may upgrade it if possible, but the question is where are the funds especially with those officials you are relating with (they are the biggest crooks to begin with, trust me, I KNOW). By golly the F-20 was even around even before I entered the service in 1989.

The concept of its adaptability with the former F-5 fleet is commendable (and those left in the PAF), however, those technological advances regarding such aircrafts are still obsolete compared to these modern days. Why not let it just go and move forward for a much up to date change instead. These F-20's that even the US Military junked are not worth it (that's why the company that made it is trying to desperately make money out of their failure to sell it). Do you want our Philippines to become the receiving end of that?

Now if you want to be a glutton for punishment, then knock yourself out.

Actually the F-20 is a superb fighter-as the Aerican pilots flying it say. It is also not that inferior to the F-16 as they almostly use the same technology. The F-20 as I think would be a very good fighter and most of all an affordable fighter for our country. It is better and more modern than the F-5 which is something we should get our hands on.
If we don't,we will end up like before missing all the chances and being left without modern jets at all.

Are there any other options on the table? the F-20 is pretty old, but it's still got my support, City Hunter, if you wish to pursue it. I don't know any ranked AFP personnel though, but I support you nonetheless.

Just want to know why this topic has been repeated three times on the topic list.

PDFF Moderator

Weird, it wasn't like that earlier.

Hunter must have had connectivity problems whichwas why it was posted thrice.

The only reason whiy the F20 faded into obscurity was because the USAF chose to adapt the F16 and changes in foreigns arms sales laws in the US made it easier to procure vipers. Nations friendly with US can now choose to purchase the F16 rather than a made-for-export jet like the F5 family.

The only export customer of the Tigershark was to have been Iran but before orders could be filled, the 1979 revolution took place.

The F20 may not be as advanced as the F35 or the Gripen. However, this simple and rugged is the most ideal plane for a 3rd world airforce like us.

What could give its ultimate edge would be the skill of the pilot and the knowledge of what tactics work for it

Admin, paki delete na lang yun 2 extra threads. No idea bakit naging ganun as minsan ko lang pinost ito. Still, check ko rin mamaya ang system ko for bugs just to be sure.

Sir maniegom, it is indeed old tech kaya ito nga ang gusto ko sa atin. And it isn't as sophisticated pa as the F-16A. Kasi hindi siya fully fly-by-wire. And it was junked dahil pinayagan, as in my first post, ang F-16 to be sold on the world market. Unlike before na mga pinayagan na models lang like our F-5s. And the fact that the Taiwanese were after it yun nga lang na-block ni Pres. Reagan makes it worth considering having a second look.

Anyhow, it is not a minus for us. Wala tayong maipagmalaki na aviation industry. Considering kailangan pa natin both an improved defense and economy this could be a boon. Admittedly, kung gahaman ang iluluklok to manage things it will be another bane for us. So, nasa tao pa rin ang success or failure nito.

This is why I'm positive na may chance ito. Consider that Sen. Pimentel and Sen. Jinggoy Estrada who have expressed interest in this issue are with the opposition. Then there's the Office of the President who is also interested in this proposal of ours (yes, I treat it as our product kasi galing ito sa combined info ninyo and on the other forum). Di ba matagal na tayo naghahanap ng isang factor where both sides agree upon. This is one of them kaya I'm using whatever means possible within my capacity to get this across. And I do not think Northrop Grumman is going to dump junk on us with this idea. This, in my opinion, is still way advanced from anything we have. Kaya it will be a good start for us.

Kung tipid sa budget for the initial production pieces then let's make them like those trainer Gripens (not the B or D but the one which lacks afterburners, etc.). Better option then over our Cali project plus a definite good replacement to the S.211s.

Going to the budget issue, as I have pointed out counter-trade ang focus natin. And for this to be accepted both by politicos and business sector gawin natin workshare. Hindi ko pa lang na-flesh out everything on paper as wala pa akong time. Will try to do a better draft once an opportunity presents itself - the hurried draft I made for the OP kasi took me most of the day to finish and proof-read.

And I have a high regard even for negative views. It helps balance things and allow me to re-check my data. Preparation ko na rin kasi ito if ever I get asked to defend this idea before those officials.

Sir Yaberdaber, there are other choices available pero ito kasi yun mukhang mas madaling tanggapin ng military at politicians natin. Mainly kasi based siya sa F-5 na alam ng piloto at maintenance personnel natin. On the political side malaking good points ito sa mga Kano if ever. Not only could we offer them a good and affordable supply for their F-5s and T-38s (a bit more tweaking on the negotiations nga lang to get this included) kundi possible replacement too for those. Remember that the US is still using T-38s and are upgrading them. Ganun rin ang mga F-5s nila. Then, hindi tayo sasabak sa MRF market. Kundi sa upgrade market lang na mas stable at kumikita naman.

I was hoping for the Lavi. Pero no response kasi both from IAI and the local Israeli embassy. Well, try ko muli next time. Other good prospects are those shelved German and East European designs. Besides the L-159, may ilan pa na may tooling at jigs rin na nagawa na. At kung hindi kinagat ng Indians ang MiG-29OVT for their new MRCA selection pwede rin natin kantahan yun.

But as the F-20 is a design na hindi kasing high-tech ng F-16 yet it is as equally as capable. And may room for growth pa siya especially considering the approach done to the latest F-16 models na from 3rd generation ay naging 4th generation.

The main thing about my insistence on this issue is that we need to start somewhere na maging self-sufficient. And we could do it the way the South Koreans are now doing. That is to start with a joint-effort on a widely accepted and used design. Ang problem lang natin hindi umabante ng husto ang local tech level hence mas bagay sa atin ang F-20 na based on the F-5 which is a simple yet reliable design. Budget issues have been answered on that privelaged speech ni Sen. Gordon. And if my proposal for a workshare gets heard tiyak susuporta rin ang mga congressman and local business sector. Add the fact na hindi isang project lang ito but many it will help keep our economy and labor sector busy and booming.

Now, kung bibili lang tayo sino lang makikinabang. And how many can we buy and what can we buy lang. Mga lumang F-16s or ChiCom copies? Those are ok sa umpisa pero saan tayo kukuha ng pondo to maintain and buy more of them? With a growing industry mas maganda ang future. Yes, the initial investment will be big but it can easily be answered by counter-trade. Maglalabas tayo ng malaking pera pero babalik rin sa atin over time. And both ends benefit pa kaya mas positive ang long-term support and future projects. Ito ang wala sa pagbili ng 2nd hand or brand new equipment through barter or paying full credit.

And as for kung kaya natin. Take these into consideration: Sen. Pimentel is open to the idea of developing our aviation industry. Blank nga lang siya where to start so I had to send him info about past local projects dating even before the Cali project. Sen. Jinggoy Estrada has taken a good look rin on the outline I made about this idea (it was before that draft I made for the OP). And the OP got interested in the idea rin and asked for that proposal. Draft nga lang napadala ko pa. May interest then on the idea and one even supports it in concept. I'm still trolling around nga lang for a congressman and military official to support it. Plus, the fact that Northrop Grumman has taken a small interest in reviving and offering the idea to us, the Philippines, means bilib sila kaya at responsible enough tayo. The only hindering factor is the current political situation natin. Ito rin kasi ang reply sa akin ni Sen. Pimentel kaya he has to focus his attention more on other matters muna.

I've also always pointed out that to afford this project counter-trade dapat. This, in my opinion, is the best option for both parties. At ang pakinabang ay long term at hindi sa panahon lang ng kung sinong opisyal ang nag-ok sa deal.

Comrade City Hunter, I would like to suggest you must begin in lobbeying in the US Congress not in the Senate of the Philippines. Then Consult your proposal to the Office of the President especially to the National Security Adviser and Department of National Defense/AFP.If you will pass the round table discussion of our National Security Council will it might be a good proposal. US Congress has a tougher screening and technological transfer scroutiny than of the Northprop Gruman. They are only private contractors who designed the F-20 for the USAF. Business is there game and selling is their life to stay alive.

F-5G or F-20 Tigershark is not a bad plane. Although it has been shelved out by USAF and India no doubt it is still a good unit in the 21st century. Northprop only knows of dealing its unit for co-production not protecting its technological info and background. We better send more lobbey group to the US congress than here in the philippines if we really wanted to have the design.Like Lavi technology patterned out from F-16 plane.More work to be done when it comes to the technological data transfer.

Comrade did you know that the AFP has already receive the "Data Transfer of the F-18''. It means they are(AFP/DND)examining already this unit for quite a while and still in the discussion table. FAS report will confirm also that in 2004 the philippines government got the Data of the F-18.

If it is true that the Philippine Modernization Fund was unspent and was stored in the bank it is a good news for us.It is not easy to start a asseambly facility here in the country since we have a unstable economy right now. But the our country is a bright spot for development.Why? EADS has already a satellite office in Singapore. So why not Northprop Gruman or Lockheed or Dornier build their Research and Development Facility here in our Country to counter the European arms developer presence in Asia.After all, Asian market still a bright spot for military hardware.

Quick question, how is the F-20 comparable to the latest generation F-16? Any documents to read up on the F-20?

Whether its comparable to F16 or not ... as far as I can assess its still comparable to other countries who is starting to build their own Jet fighter industry ...

But por dios por santo ... wag naman tayo magstart dun sa Cali Pinto ... masyado naman malayo yung hahabulin natin .. :dunno:

hunter,

first off, the Philippines needs to know how much Northrop is charging to transfer all the knowledge,jigs, tools, etc for the F-20. is it $5 million? $ 20 million? $100 million? etc.

all our discussion on the F-20 is doomed if the Philippines cannot afford how much Northrop is asking.

after we know how much they are asking, we can already make a guesstimate if we have to abandon the F-20 idea or not , then if the price is ok then we need to do a project feasibility study.

this feasibility study can be done now kasi summer na and most university students have a lot of time on their hands. we should approach MAPUA, UP , AIM , Ateneo, National defense college, and ask all of them to write a voluntary feasibility study. then we compare all their feasibility studies. why make them write separate studies? because it will be interesting how they write their studies on the F-20 feasibility, what are their assumptions, what data and assumptions did they include, etc. a reasonable comparison/assumption for the project study is how much foreign exchange we can save as compared to just buying a jet fighter abroad. it would be unreasonable to expect the F-20 project to earn a profit specially early in the project cycle. a more modest goal is that the foreign exchange savings plus the tech transfer knowhow is worth buying the F-20 system.

then submit a unified report to the DND since the DND secretary's signature is needed on any project over 50 million pesos. we need to get the interest of the DND , and we can only get the DND'd interest if our report is backed up by prestigious institututions....

we can ask also the inputs of retired and active PAF generals. retired generals are members of the PMA cavaliers, or AGFO. just give this groups a call.......... etc etc

Sir jammerjamesky, I started with the Senate kasi ang angle ko is convince those who would approve the budget for it. Mas importante kasi na malaman ko kung ok sa mga maglalabas ng pera. From experience kasi kahit ok ang item sa taong gagamit at mga opisyales kapag di aprub sa bean counter wala rin. Anyway, hindi ko magagawang mag-lobby sa US. Wala pa nga reply yun US vice president pati Defense Dept. nila to my queries on this.

As for the data about yun F18, anything is possible pa naman dahil wala pa naman naaaprub. Still, I'd prefer we go with the single-engine fighter-bomber concept. Yun twin-engine obsolete na kung lightweight fighter ang pag-uusapan. Even MiG and Sukhoi are fielding single-engined designs for their next pieces na LWF.

Sa aspect naman kung ok pa rin ang F-20 despite its aged design, hindi yun gamit ang point. Kasi, for me, kahit super hi tech pa siya kung bulok yun pilot useless rin. Ang mahusay na pilot will maximize the potential ng equipment niya. Limited nga lang options niya pero that doesn't make him na no match sa better equipped yet less well trained na pilot. One example which I always like to point out ay yun Iranian F-5E downing by gunfire an Iraqi MiG-25. Parehong pinalipad ng mga ace pilots not bano ones. But as facts prove, kung mahusay ang pilot at napili niya ang right situation siya pa rin ang mananalo.

Medyo malaki rin pa kasi kulang sa draft ko. I didn't include pa doon yun item about faster training based on the Swede concept with their Gripens. Pati yun defense concept nila. Would include those things kapag nagkaroon na ng time to rewrite and add things to the said draft.

Sir jammerjamesky, blank kasi ako on how at pati na sa time to do a lobbying sa mga US officials. Gawin ko na lang malamang yun approach na ginawa ko with the OP and the Senate. Hanapin ko nga lang yun lumang files about that US representative na bumisita noon para tignan yun mga ChiCom structures. Will try rin with other officials ni Bush baka may kumagat. Like si Ms. Rice na mukhang candidate rin sa pagka presidente nila.

The F20 was developed when most computers run on DOS, and Intel 286 processor. the control panel was made of analog dial and gauges, CRT screen.

Of course like a computer it can be upgraded with multi function LCD screen display, FBW, HMS, and Intel pentium 4 chips.(or V?)


The problem with the F20 is it shorter range and payload as compared to the battle tested F16A/C. Again the F20's range can be extended, with newer and lighter engine, parts, and fuselage.

The newer F35 prototype is significantly lighter than the first prototype.
The F/A18E based on the earlier F/A18C has increased its range for about 40% and it has fewer parts.

The F20 was still in its infancy when first made, therefore there is still a room for development, "BUT it would definitely increase significantly the cost/price per aircraft." unless the newer technology that would be added is already developed, like the conformal fuel tank similar with the F16B52, engine with thrust vector and super cruise. and a delta wing with canards.

The F16MLU cost about 10 to 15million dollars. If the F20 would cost about the same then the PAF should pick the F20 provided the plane is cheaper to maintain and operate, and provided further, the Northrup Grumman would agree to sell to the Philippines the technology including the right to export it to countries friendly to the Philippines and the US.

If you have any idea kung sinong pwedeng lapitan paki-post na lang here at link o e-mail nila. I'll do the legwork from there.

hi there! :armysmile:

comrade City Hunter, i am wondering about the response of Northrop when you sent them your queries regarding the possibility of the modernized F-20 as the next-generation MRF of the PAF and the response of our senators regarding the suggestion of the F-20 for the PAF and the idea of our country having a self-sufficient defense industry.

regarding the modernized F-20, there are three primary factors that are worthy of consideration: (1) it should have the capability to carry and fire modern-day missiles such as the AIM-9M Sidewinder, the AIM-120 AMRAAM and the AGM-65 Maverick and guided and unguided bombs and rockets; (2) it should able to perform anti-ship missions by having the capability to carry and fire missiles such as the AGM-84 Harpoon and the Penguin; and (3) it should be able to integrate modern avionics (including and self-protection (chaff) suites.

as for us lobbying in the US Senate, we must try contacting "Philippine-friendly" senators such as Richard Lugar, Barbara Boxer, Dianne Feinstein, Daniel Akaka, Daniel Inouye, John McCain and Hilary Clinton. we really must do what the Israelis and the Arabs are doing in the Beltway if we want to get America's favor. :demon:

Sir City Hunter, forget the US Vice President, he's still getting over the trauma of shooting his hunting buddy. Kidding aside I support your quest. But I agree that we must have a good idea of how much the total package (Transfer of technology and engineering tools) will cost us and if the US will agree to it. The Lavi was scrapped because the US pulled the plug (financially and technologically speaking). Their reason, it will compete with their F16. There was an American Senator that visited the Philippines and he said that he will support the export of F18 jets to the Philippines. He also mentioned that it was being built in his home state. I just forgot who. So I guess you have already an opponent in the making since he will definitely lobby against your proposal. Why agree to such a deal if it will take away jobs from his constituents.
He who tilts with the windmills either end up in the mud or among the stars.
Shalom

I second Sultan's idea, of asking different colleges and universities conduct independent feasibility studies to further the research of this proposal. I also second including the cost of how much Northrop Grumman will give us for the entire thing.

Take into the game Sec. Ronaldo Puno. A former top caliver lobbeyist in the U.S. Government before.

^ Ronaldo Puno? nah. i suggest we drop him from the list. right now, he is more concerned dancing to the tune of CHA-CHA (just like his boss, the gremlin in Malacañang) than hearing our suggestions on how to modernize the military and the police. :headbang:

Even though he has his own business to make a good strategy(CHA-CHA). I think we can also solicit some advice on how to start on the lobbey process. And still he is a capable of connections in his former lobbey firm.

No joke here when he was a lobbeyist in the US Government. He is one of the Top Caliver asset of the firm.

Aside from lobbying with Capitol Hill, we should also pull the private sector into the project. They're the ones with the skilled manpower to do the actual manufacturing.

The only problem would be that local big business involved in aerospace and manufacturing do not have the money to support such endeavors.

Of course one other problem is that most of the economy is built on the export of raw materials and labor (OFWs and BPOs) as well as foreign capital brought into the country.

Such a project may need foreign funding.

[/QUOTE]On the 18th July 2005 Dassault and the Brazilian government announced that a deal had been finalised for the sale of 12 Mirage 2000C (10 single seaters and two two-seat trainers formerly in AdlA service). The sale includes Super 530D BVR missiles R550 Magic II IR missiles. The aircraft are equipped with the RDI radar that is still used by the majority of French aircraft. The sale has been valued at € 85 Million.[QUOTE]

^^Isn't that a deal worth to consider as well???

Hmmmmmmm..... After the Termination of the F-20 project in 1986 it seems like it will be the end of F-20 design. and Hope it will found a new market with a newer avionic suites and engines.

Korea has evaluated the F-20, Taiwan was also interested before and last offer was in India but they shelved it out.

What can I say? Dont lessen your degree of Optimism about the resurrection of F-20. Just go on with pure determination to make your idea a reality. You must prepare and make a solid stand on your idea or project to revive the F-20, because there will be a lot of stiff resistance from all side.

If there is a big possibility for Uncle Sam to give us the rights and manufacture F-20 as our own, then why not??

F-20 TIGERSHARK is a great plane that was not given a chance to show its potential and capability. The design of F-20 TigerShark has given it the performance and capability that match or surpass other famous American plane.
Given the right and latest technology, it would made the F-20 TIGERSHARK a powerful MRF like other 4th generation plane.
Hope for your success. :thumb: Peace to all.

City Hunter,
Take note about the post of our fellow comrade. Just dont forget to integrate the best missile or guided bomb unit on F-20. Kailangan meron din powerful sting yung F-20 to give it an edge on Air to Air or Air to Ground Mission.

The most important thing now for your F-20 idea is to get strong supporter because as I said on my previous post,
there will be a lot of stiff resistance on your project and probably those F-18 Hornet are already in front of our door waiting for the right timing to be open and enter for the next PAF fighter plane.

Suggestion ko lang as your co Forum member, Maybe you need to chat/interview with our flyboys and get their point of view about the plane they want to fly, so you can cater or study what they need.

Question lang, if ever Philippine will be given the rights for F-20, do you have any idea as to what kind of radar system you want to integrate to the plane. Conventional ba or AESA??Kasi importante sa lahat yung radar at saka yung contermeasure(survival) system nung MRF.
The radar system of F-20 is AN/APG 67 and the performance is already far behind on what you can expect to a modern day radar of 4th generation plane today. Again wish you all the best on your endeavor.. Peace to all. :armycheers:

Another edge also of the F-5 and F-20 design are hard to see but the presence of the modern 4th and 5th generation radars will make the F-20 easily be detected. But im still optimistic that we can clinched and close a deal between the F-16, F-18 and F-20.

Lockheed's F-16 is now on its closing years but we can still utilize the last block of the production from the plant until the F-35 will be around on 2012.

Boeings F-18 also has a new E/F/G versions but we can still avail those A/B version and upgrade it also.

Northprop F-20 is a promising fighter that will probably give us more fire power that we neeeded.

Sir edwin, ang proposal ko would center first on developing the basics. Bale concentrate muna on the units and raw materials para makagawa ng bagong aircraft pati mga pwedeng pagkakitaan. Next would be the simultaneous development of simulators (affordable ones) for the F-20 and F-5 Plus version na maaring ilabas. Going then to the F-20 gusto ko sobrang basic muna. The reason is that I want the pilots and maintenance to be as versed on it. Ito rin ay para maging war production model. That way, the pilots too will not rely too much on equipment until they've developed the skill. Then and only then should we improve the items that are to be included. Well, that's my idea but am continually refining things.

Currently checking up on the Dornier Alpha Jet and hope they reply soon to my queries. Ask ko kasi permission nila kung pwede isali sa list.

Also, I'm rechecking other shelved designs na may potential at mukhang kakayanin naman natin ang cost.

Be sure to update us on this project, Sir Hunter. I would like to hear more news from you out of this.

:snipemo: as for not having existing capability to manufacture aircraft....

take note of iran's Azarakhsh (Lightning), a reverse engineered f-5 with modifications from the mig29, f14 and f4....

"Iran was not known to have possessed advanced technology to build fighter planes or tanks. However, In April 1997 Iranian Brigadier General Arasteh, a deputy head of the General Staff of the Armed Forces (serving under Major General Ali Shahbazi, the joint chief of staff) claimed that Iran had successfully designed, constructed, and tested its first fighter aircraft, the Azarakhsh(Lightning). According to one theory, Iran cobbled together an aircraft by reverse-engineered elements from a number of other aircraft. Evidently a modified F-5, this Iranian design evolved from an examination of the wide variety of fighter aircraft in Iran's inventory [which include both the F-4 and F-5], along with training and experimentation."

for picture follow this link:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...n/azarakhsh.htm

we can reverse engineer di ba? if others could, notably china, why not us?

:pushup: semper fi!

Iran has the advantage of having the infastructure the US left behind in`79, a highly-trained trained workforce, oil reserves and a government willing to invest in such endeavors plus a great demand for locally-produced armaments caused by the threat of US invasion and a decrease in Soviet/Russian Military aid.

The Philippines lacks largely locally-owned infastructure for defense industries. Many of our government officials also make away with most of our revenues for use in their self-serving agenda (like ensuring their grip on power while earning a decent profit) leaving little for defense spending or even basic services for that matter.

We may have the natural resources too but it's foreigners who benefit most from most of it.

We also have highly-skilled workers and professionals who can get such projects and even our economy running. Unfortunately, we do not have the capital to support jobs they are trained for like engineering or IT-related jobs. They are forced to work overseas or re-train for jobs in demand overseas like nursing or care-giving. Those at home have to make do with jobs they weren't trained but can qualify for like transcripting doctor's appointments or selling insurance over to Americans over the phone.

Moving on from another bout, of Political ranting.....

It appears that the aircraft of the F5 family can still be viable in the 21st century with the US upgrading their T38s to stretch their service life to 2040 by fitting them with side sticks and Glass cockpits. Spain's Ejercito del Aire fit a target designator on their F5Bs for target painting

teniente colonel tora

iran's economy was in shambles.. they never had an aerospace capability to begin with nor advanced tech.. after the shah left they were involved in a long and protracted war with iraq.. remember both sides were scraping the barrel at the tailend of that war...

but they picked themselves up afterwards. my point is we can start the same way they did... if Northrop Grumman can help and is really interested or if we can speak with the iranians.. if the americans really consider us a viable and valuable ally the should PUT UP and stop sending us refurbished, obsolete crap.. USMC harriers, USAF F15 and F16's are being put to mothballs..

end this talk na di natin kaya imaintain and we are untrained..thats what retraining is for.. all this talk of the talented and gifted pinoy is all TALK until we get a move on..

a lot has been said about the f5 and its viability in the 21st century... the f20 or the iranian f5 is exactly that, an f5 modernized to meet requirements for the 21st century... and the others were right, the F20 is a great airframe.

begging your pardon pero we MUST get it together. The Chinese threat is real as the wind.. you cant or refuse to see it, but its there, and as well as other threats internal and external..

:headbang:

So, we need to put into action whatever grand idea we have in mind. We just need to prove that we can do it.

Regarding chinese threat, I think our security must be well prepared againts all types of perceived threat whether internal or external.
AFP modernization should not be taken lightly or we will be the one to suffer in the long run because our defenses is weak. Peace to all.

Iran also has stealth fighters in theri inventory now. I believe it was a joint-venture project with Russia.

Ah, the ever-popular F-20. The homunculus that keeps trying to be born.

But is desire all it takes?

Alright, let's look at what the facts prove.

"Parehong pinalipad ng mga ace pilots not bano ones." Check. Next?

"Kasi, for me, kahit super hi tech pa siya kung bulok yun pilot useless rin. Ang mahusay na pilot will maximize the potential ng equipment niya. Limited nga lang options niya pero that doesn't make him na no match sa better equipped yet less well trained na pilot."

The pilots were both "mahusay" but who was "better equipped"? The facts, contrary to the myth, show that the pilot in the F-5E flew the better machine.

But this does not prove that what you said is false, since the specifics of your example do not correspond to that of the situation you described. Both pilots involved being top aces, the results might have been different if the pilot flying the F-5E had been "bulok" or "less well trained". So here's a list of the Philippines' co-claimants to the Kalayaan Islands and the primary fighter aircraft types serving or ordered for service in their respective air forces:

China: Shenyang J11/J11A/J11B (licence-built Sukhoi Su-27SK), Chengdu J10A (Lavi knockoff?), Chengdu J7/Shenyang J8 (MiG-21 knockoffs), Xi’an JH7/JH7A (indigenous naval strike a/c), Sukhoi Su-30MKK/MK2 (ordered)

Indonesia: Sukhoi Su-30MK (more under negotiation), Sukhoi Su-27SK, Lockheed F-16A/B, Northrop F-5E/F, BAe Hawk Mk.209/Mk.109

Malaysia: RAC-MIG MiG-29N/NUB, Boeing F/A-18D, Northrop F-5E/F, BAe Mk.208/Mk.108, Sukhoi Su-30MKM (deliveries start second-half of 2006, will be fitted with Thales avionics and weapons from the Rafale), Boeing F/A-18F (under negotiation)

Taiwan: AMD Mirage 2000-5, Lockheed F-16A/B Block 25 (upgraded ADF standard), AIDC Ching-Kuo, Northrop F-5E/F

Vietnam: Sukhoi Su-27, MiG-21, Su-7, Su-17/22

(Brunei, another claimant, does not deploy fighter aircraft)

Now, which of the air arms listed employ the “bulok” or “less well trained” pilots against whom a skilled pilot can prevail regardless of a disparity in equipment? Let us do what you say and concentrate on pilot quality and ignore other possible factors such as distance, numbers, radar coverage, support from EW and AWACS elements, etc.