For sale Nazi German tanks

Bulgaria is selling German tanks from the World War II for about €100,000. This is the starting price, according to the Sunday edition of Bulgarian daily Trud in Sofia. The Bulgarian Defence Ministry plans to auction some 22 German Wehrmacht tanks and assault guns. The best-preserved pieces will be offered to museums before auctions begin.

Perhaps these German tanks could be a stop-gap solution for those MBT fans here who keep asking for world-class tanks. :lollol:

On a more serious note, these tanks would not be that usable in the RP defense setting and the lack of spare parts would make them a maintenance nightmare, not to mentiont the fact that they are obsolete, though the rebels the AFP are facing are armed with nothing than kill these tanks save for RPGs in rebels hands or LAW launchers and rounds taken from AFP armories, I assume.

http://www.thelocal.de/10441/20080302

MSantor,

This sale is a bit far too late for the AFP. Had this occurred say about 40 years ago maybe those tanks will still be of use. Syria, if you remember used the Stugs and a mix of PZ III and PZ IV during the 6 day war with Israel.

The Tiger, Panther and King Tiger are probably off the limits for the AFP since those tanks are expensive to maintain and are gas guzzlers. The way I see it maybe the PZ IV. It was mass produced, easy to maintain, fuel efficient as compared to its larger kins.

With the slow modernization of the PA and the AFP as a whole, due to the endless finger pointing and bad mouthing in the Senate, the AFP will have to wait for another 20 years before they will receive feelers from neighboring Asian countries who are trying to sell their 40 year old Leopard A2-A3's and 60 year old Leopard A1's.


:grrr:

No neighboring Asian countries use Leopard Ones and Twos.

The nearest nation to the RP who uses Leopard Ones is Australia and the nearest nation who uses BOTH Leopard Ones and Twos is Canada.

Taiwan/the ROC uses M60s and M48s and the ROK/South Korea uses its home-built K1 tanks in addition to M60s and M48s, IIRC. Japan uses its home-built Type 90s.

North Korea, Mongolia, Vietnam and mainland China (I assume Laos as well) use Soviet-designed, if not Soviet-built tanks, though the PLA uses tanks which are pretty much copies of Soviet models, such as the Chinese Type 59, which is pretty much a copy of a Soviet T-54/55. The newer Chinese tanks, however, such as the Type 85 and Type 90/98 are supposedly more indigenous in design, though they still have some notable Russian-influenced design features, such as rear external fuel tanks, IIRC.

Thailand, as you probably already know, uses Stingray tanks as well and I think it probably uses the M60 as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_Army

Malaysia uses those Polish-designed, East-bloc influenced PT-91 tanks as well as a few Scorpion light tanks as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Army

Interestingly, Indonesia uses Russian-made T-90 tanks, French-made AMX-13s as well as Scorpions!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Army

That pretty much sums up the MBT and light tank types of the majority of the RP's Asian neighbors. The things one can find and learn to clear misconceptions with just a quick search, eh? :armycheers:

On the contrary comrade MSantor

read this link as I have been lived in Singapore a few years back and know some friends who served in their armed forces:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Army

In a few years from now some of their hardwares will be sold to neighboring asean nations, same goes to old Leopards from other European countries.

So Singapore is an exception, though it surprisingly has 66 Leopard 2s- more than the 20 Leopard 2s Canada currently has, though most of Canada's 105 Leopard 1s are still operational. Hehehe. So what? My point is to you that most of the East and Southeast Asian nations named above in my earlier post do not have Leopards.

Regardless, the RP does not need MBTs now, especially with their limited combat value in an archipelago nation that is filled with mountains and jungles which allow both guerrila warfare and COIN warfare in response to that, but which are not conducive to the huge pitched battles of MBTs vs. MBTs which the tank buffs here would like to see, even though WW2-era and Modern era tank combat since then up to today is fundamentally the same in spite of new factors such as anti-tank missiles thrown into the fray.

Even though there have been uses of MBTs in jungles during post-WW2 conflicts such as Vietnam, which saw the use of a few US Army/USMC M48s pulverizing a few NVA PT76 light tanks, but most modern armies engaged primarily in COIN such as Colombia do not have or use MBTs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_Army

First of, yes, Singapore is the only asian nation that have the Leopards, but what happens in the next 10 to 20 years.... no one knows. Malaysia and other neighboring asean nations may decide to buy the Leopards, maybe the A4 when they become obsolete by European standards. Maybe Canada might sell some of hers too come 20 years from now.

Ok, MBTS not suited or are overkill for COIN, but what happens after the COIN is over? Its bound to end sometime eventhough its being wages for more than 30 years. What happens when the commies come with their big MBT's? Or what if the economy of the Philippines does fluorish and have ample funds to purchase modern weapons. The Philippines is just not going to stand around and see neighboring asean nations buy leopards, M1's Merkavas, etc. They are bound to buy a number of MBTS, granting that the economy is strong as in the early 1950's and 60's.

MBTS's weight are too much for most bridges in RP. With a strong economy, infrastructures are bound to be improved too, not for tanks of course but to cater to large volume of cars and other transportation.

We are veering off the supposed topic, point here is if the economy is good , the Philippines , 100%, will surely buy MBTS and other modern weaponry. A strong and modern armed forces usually reflects a strong economy.

:btt: if there is more talk about.

And how do you know that these other Asian nations- like Malaysia- are not content with the MBTs that they have? Why do you assume that just because European and North American nations have the Leopard 2 that they have a better MBT? I'm sure Malaysia is pretty much satisfied with their Polish-made PT91 tank, as the Thais are satisfied with their M60s and their Stingrays.

If the RP is going to get better equipment to defend against external threats after the COIN war there is resolved, then MRFs should be the topmost priority along with the missiles to arm the planes, to be followed by new warships capable of launching SSMs and SAMs.

It's only when you've dealt with the air and naval fronts that you can consider MBTs; it's only common sense, since MRFs and warships can sink the enemy troop transport carrying enemy MBTs before they even reach Philippine shores in a war situation, thus negating the need for the RP's own MBTs.

But as I said before- the AFP does not need MBTs- there is VERY LITTLE CHANCE for them to be used at all, as seen with Japan's own JGSDF Type 90s, whose guns were only fired in anger during exercises. Just because the Japanese have it does not mean the RP should have it; most Philippine terrain is unsuitable for MBT vs. MBT combat, as I have said before, and the anti-tank role can easily be filled with troops carrying anti-tank missiles or IFVs like the M113 armed with anti-tank missiles like the TOW (if they're ever sold to the RP :armyroleyes: ) or even anti-tank missiles carried on PAF helicopters.

SHEESH! Please stop dreaming of MBTs. Maybe in like 30-50 years or so, when the RP economy has matched that of the Asian tiger economies, but by then even the M1 Abrams or the Leopards will all be obselete and something better will be in production- perhaps some Robotech mecha? Or even one of Zero Wing's Gundams? :armyroleyes:

AYYY BUHAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.......

And how do you know that these other Asian nations- like Malaysia- are not content with the MBTs that they have? Why do you assume that just because European and North American nations have the Leopard 2 that they have a better MBT? I'm sure Malaysia is pretty much satisfied with their Polish-made PT91 tank, as the Thais are satisfied with their M60s and their Stingrays.

Let me reverse the question for you, how do you know or how sure are you that Malaysia is satisfied with their PT91 or the Thais with their M60's and Stingrays? Given more funds one will more likely get the best in the market. Come on MSantor, its plain human nature.

If a country like the Philippines were to arm itself to the teeth to defend against any external threats, given the right amount of funds, of course by all means give air power top priority. But remember, air power alone cannot completely stop an invading force especially if China is the adversary. History can attest to that. It must be a joint effort from all military branches.

Until the Pilippines government can get its act together and just concentrate in improving the economy instead of dirty politics, a fully armed and modern AFP will forever be a dream unrealized.

We've been through this before and I see this going nowhere. I merely dropped the Leopard A1 sale in 20 to 30 years as some sort of a pun...a joke but it seems that you are taking it seriously and veering away from the topic you started. I also see nothing more to talk about.

:closed:

i got your point,... maybe i think we should go on the korean tanks, like the K1 or K2, :salute:

:headbang: Adrian, Here we go again.
Ughhhhhhhh.....

Akimima,

I know you meant well for mentioning that pun and joke. However, I must respectfully disagree that the AFP will need MBTs anytime soon. I also think that you should have paid more attention to this point I made earlier:

And as for airpower- it makes more sense to focus on it as the top priority because if one gains air superiority, they can kill two birds with one stone; MRFs can kill both external threats (such as a Chinese/PLAN invasion fleet carrying troops and armour) and internal/ground threats such as enemy tanks that could have been landed by that invasion fleet.

And history has shown that even the best tanks and armoured vehicles can fall prey to enemy airpower if those vehicles do not have air support. Look what happened to those powerful Nazi German King Tiger and Panther tanks during the Battle of the Bulge/the Ardennes in December 1944? Once the bad weather protecting their offensive had cleared, many became prey to waves of Allied P47 Thunderbolt fighter-bombers.

You're probably wary of relying so much on airpower because Gen. MacArthur and the USAFFE lost the battle to defend the Philippines the day most of the USAAC P40 and B17 planes were caught on the ground at Clark AB and destroyed by Japanese air attacks on Dec. 8, 1941. The only mistake there on MacArthur and his subordinates' part was not using his planes more offensively and keeping most of them in one area and not dispersing them, as what happened to Hickam and Bellows Airfields in Oahu during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor the day before. Still, those few USAAC B17s and P40s which did survive the initial Japanese air attacks did prove vital in harassing Japanese ships and ground forces before MacArthur withdrew his air assets to Java and Australia; you should look up the heroic sacrifice of B17 pilot Colin Kelly who helped badly damage a Japanese cruiser during the initial invasion, IIRC. My point is that air assets, like all other assets, have to be used wisely; having a well-equipped, balanced Armed Forces which has the top equipment for every branch and every contingency is a LUXURY of a developed, prosperous nation such as the United States; the RP cannot afford that kind of luxury yet until it reaches a level of economic development and per capita standard of living that matches that of the "Asian Tiger" economies.

Thus the Abrams and Leopards that many on this forum covet will be turned to scrap metal if they do not have anything to protect them enemy helicopters with anti-tank missiles or even attack aircraft that PGMs or ASMs.

Anyways, as always, I appreciate your input and hope that you and others at least see the gist of what I am trying to say.

Its always a mutual collaboration of all military branches to get things. We can also throw in the Flying Tigers. Major Chennault always wanted his boys to get top priority. Though they were able to shoot down a number of Jap planes but they failed to stop the Jap ground troops.

Well at least we are both seeing the value of air and land power, and also we must never forget the value of Navy.

Peace :)

Point taken about the Flying Tigers/AVG. Sorry to be a stickler on facts, but wasn't Chennault a Major General, not just a Major at the time?

He was a major when he retired from the Air Corps in 1937 but when he came out of retirement and served under Chang Kai Shek and eventually with the US Air Force, his rank jumped until his final retirement with the rank of Lt. General.

Thanks for answering. Yes, he is one of the WW2-era aviation's legends. :salute:

I don't think acquiring these old tanks would be a benefit to us. I'd probably go for such if these were the Kubelwagens, Schwimwagens and that Commader Car (hope I spelled those German names right) were being sold off instead. Would make great use for us here as simple machines work best. One major obstacle for invaders to our country would be the lack of road and bridges capable of supporting MBTs so let's make the most of that to our advantage.