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Philippine MSSR
"Marine Scout Sniper Rifle"



NSWAG with 3rd Gen MSSR

Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Rem)
Operation: Gas operated semi-automatic
Scope: Tasco Armored 3-9x40mm
Bushnell 3-9x40mm w/Mil-Dots (3rd Gen).
Feed: 20/30 round detachable box magazine.
Weight: 10 lbs (4.55 kg)
Length: 42.25" (107.3 cm)
Barrel: 24" (68 cm) DPMS Heavy Stainless Steel Match
20" (50.8 cm) DPMS Heavy SS Match (NSWAG 3rd Gen)
Barrel Twist: RH 1 - 8.5", or 1-8" (3rd Gen)
Stock: Black synthetic M-16A1 design with Cheek Rest.
Black syntehtic M-16A2 (3rd Gen)
Trigger: J&P match trigger
Accuracy: At least 1 MOA with M855 ammo


The MSSR was developed out of a need for a designated sniper rifle for the Landing Battalions of the Filipino Marines. They were operating on a limited budget, and didn't have the expert gunsmiths to modify a M14 or any of the other standard rifles used for sniping. But they do have the experts who know how to work on M16's. They have been producing the M16A1 under license for several years, and all the troops are framiliar with the handling of the weapon. So they did the logical thing and built a sniper rifle on the M16A1 platform.
The armorers take an existing M16A1 lower receiver and replace the upper with a DPMS match upper and Barrel. This includes a floating aluminum handguard tube and a Harris bi-pod is attached to that. They use a Tasco Armored 3-9x40mm scope, not really my first choice, in fact, not a very good choice in my opinion. But they did have a very limited budget to work with, so this is probably the one area they thought they could get away with cutting. They use a J&P match trigger that has been fine tuned. The rifles are tested and only get issued if they will shoot 1 MOA or better with M855 ammo.

I am not a fan of the 5.56mm being used in sniper rifles, but this is a unique case were it isn't such a bad plan. The limited ranges found in the Filipino jungles helps reduce some of the short comings of the round. The rifles will generally shoot right around 1 MOA out to 600 meters. The ease of training due to framiliarity with the M16 helps to reduce training costs, both for the sniper and the armorers. All in all, its not a bad implentation, and shows some creativity in developing a sniper rifle with a set of rigid constraints.

Update The Filipino Marines have started deployment of the 3rd generation MSSR with the Naval Special Warfare Group (NSWAG) and some Marines starting the transition. Changes to the 3rd Gen includes the DPMS 24 inch heavy barrel (with the NSWAG opting for the 20 inch). The new barrels have a change of twist from the old 1-8.5" to a new 1-8". The rifles also have a DPMS gas port, A2 pistol grips, and use three scope rings rather than two. The new 3rd Gen MSSR has also replaced the rubber coated Tasco scope with a Bushnell 3-9x scope with mil dots. The standard ammo for the MSSR has been changed from M885 to the federal 69 grain match. The MSSR has also began evaluation of Remington 700P's to be used as an intermediate range sniper rifle to compliment the MSSR and their long range .50 that is used in small numbers. With the upgrades to the MSSR, it has become a very nice rifle for its intended mission. Thanks to Lt Col John Martir of the Philippine Marine Corps for the updated info and images!!






Marines take delivery of 3rd Gen MSSR

FULL DETAIL: http://www.snipercentral.com/mssr.htm

take note neps and terrorists.

podpod na nga mongol pencils nila sa kasusulat he he he :armygrin:

Ingenious indigenous design.

But, may I ask, why develop your own 5.56mm 24"-barrel M16-based sniper rifle when you could get a 7.62mm 26"-bbl bolt-action sniper rifle for less? Was bolt-action ruled out in favor of semiauto, even if it means going down to 5.56? What factors swayed the decision in going with one over the other? Just wondering.

Cost reasons are cited but...from the PMC site, the figure of P7.5M for 45 rifles is cited, so that's P166,667 each?

Snipercentral.com lists "around $750" for an off-the-shelf Remington 700P, bolt-action 7.62mm w/ 26" barrel (same type used by SR according to another thread). Internet sites put the price for a Leupold 3.5-10X scope (better than the Bushnell/Tasco 3-9x?) also at around $750. That's a total of $1500k, so at PhP55 to $1, around P82,500, isn't that half of an MSSR?

The SWAG went for the 20"-barrel MSSR for compactness I presume? But there's also the LTR version of the Remington (same price or less than 700P I suppose), also with 20" barrel but it's 7.62.

An accurized M16 for squad marksmen would be nice but based on the figures above -- unless the numbers from the PMC and the other sites are dramatically wrong -- and also in terms of performance, wouldn't have just buying a bolt-action 7.62mm like the Remington 700P and slapping on a Leupold scope been a better choice for a dedicated sniper rifle?

As far as i can remember what MBLT6 said, the reason behind that is that the MSSR is used for primary sniping (for close infantry support).

Please try to read the earlier postings on the "Marines or SR" thread.

Medyo mahaba na nga lang! :funnypost:

http://s3.invisionfree.com/Defense_Philipp...p?showtopic=132

As i quote one post from that thread;

One big advantage is that, in the same amount of time, with the MSSR you can take out 3 targets while with the bolt-action rifle, you'll still be loading for the second hit.

Is this new rifle of export quality? I know many marine scout sniper rifles are hand-built, like the M40A1. Models are hand-built in Quantico, Virginia by expert US Marines. This could hamper production.

:snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo: :snipemo:

Semper Fidelis et Paratus

Sure wish our armorers take out from storage our old G3s and captured FALs and tinker with them. Would great make sniping and support weapon like our M14s. Captured AKs and Type 57s on the other hand would better serve as RPKs in 5.56mm.

Another question. Does the MSSR get issued with a different bullet? Would be a shame if it uses standard ammo only on missions.

The Marine Corps now reloads Match grade ammo in the follwng specs:
5.56mm: 68 grain hornady BTHP match
73 grain Tap BTHP Match
68 grain Hornady BTHP Match Subsonic
7.62mm: 168 grain Hornady BTHP Match
168 grain Hornady BTHP Match Subsonic

We are the only Unit in the AFP reloading match grade ammo after experiencing the long process of of procurement for match grade ammo from the US. We had used the HSM 5,56mm 69 gr match ammo from Missoula, Mt prior to our endevour to make our own. The Marine Scout Sniper School caters to the match ammo needs of the Navy.

A lot of factors affected the procurement of the MSSR as cost for delivery from the US as freight, insurance and taxes as VAT required on the local proponents also the costs included spotting scopes, mini binos, Hoppes solvent, CLP, otis cleaning kits, cleaning patches and hard transport cases for a total weapon system, cost of publication of its operating manual ( you never issue a weapon without it specially if its home grown) . The Remington 700PPS on the other hand(http://www.navy.mil.ph/gallery/marines/originalimages/pmcadd7.jpg) as per our experience is not suitable per se to our needs since it has leupold mounts and aluminum rings while we require weaver or picatinny rails to adopt to our vision master day and night scopes, . Added costs require further accurizing as enhanced barrel bedding, crowning , Harris bipods, steel 30mm rings, slings, mounts, local conversion of adjustable cheek rest does add to the cost. Retail costs in the US does not necessarilly ensure the worth when it comes to us. We have of our own tactical needs adopted to our environment that does add to its costs specially if the weapon is intended for commercial hunting and not of mil specs. We call it Integrated Logistics System to ensure maintenace and proper utilization of the weapon.

The AK47 using its standard 7.62mm x 39 is not suitable for sniping. The Russians and Chinese know this and use the 7.62mmx54 rim fire round for thier Druganov Sniper rifles. The AK47 round in ordnance circles classify this round as an inaccurate and overpowered pistol round simply because of thier lower bullet velocity.

I was suggesting that the captured AKs and Type 56s be modified to 5.56mm and issued as RPKs to troops. Maybe modded a bit more it could be made as accurate as the Galil Sniper but that would sure cost much. It would be better if the money for such a research be used instead on how we could duplicate the mods made on the Garand. There's this guy in the US who mods standard Garands to accept hot rounds - better than the .300 WinMag. Would sure be a great asset for our fighting force if this comes about.

BTW, what happened to those G3s and FALs? Are they just gathering dust in the armory? Haven't seen any used in action lately. I presume that we have no captured Dragunovs as most of my sources reply none was used by Commie and Muslim seperatists here.

Hmmm. Does our Marine snipers prefer the use of a bipod in the field? Its just my opinion but the other school of thought would be my preference.

Sure wish the AFP develops the reserves into its true potential. There are a lot of local tech that could deliver most of those mods. Well, they're known to military personnel anyway as that's mostly what makes up the bulk of their 'suki's'. I wonder why the AFP doesn't tap into those when they know them naman.

BTW, don't we already have a law wherein the capturing agency can appropriate for its use those captured from illegal gain? I know for a fact that the Marines are one of those who get to capture druggies and other criminal elements. What happened to the equipment and money taken? They sure can help to buy our fighting force the much needed equipment to do battle. Even a lowly pusher has at least 20 grand on his hideout. That would spell a lot of much needed bullets for our troops (at least in reload cost). The bigger fishes would be able to help us buy more of these MSSRs.

Appreciate the response, mblt6. That certainly explains it.

they end up in the stomach. pulutan. :armycheers: some in some pockets i think. hehehe :demon:

As per conversation with MBLT, they are turned over to GHQ.

This is why the Marines haven't been able to test their anti-RPG cages yet because the RPGs they captured were turned over to the Area Commands, and the response to the requisition -- to get them back -- for the tests is taking a while.

eye patch?

Nice. Nakahanap rin ng kapwang ayaw gumamit ng bipod. Yun eyepatch I forgot the reason for it but its part of the training for marksmanship as far as I know.

guys, just want to ask, does a Semi-auto sniper rifle like MSSR in 5.56mm have enough killing power and energy at longer range??

Regarding accuracy, how does an MSSR fare to other semi-auto sniper rifle in 5.56mm??

Sniper to Sniper, I think a Marine Sniper with MSSR is on the loosing side againts an enemy with sniper rifle chambered in 7.62 or other caliber higher than 5.56mm. Peace to all.

The 5.56mm is adequate for normal engagement ranges. For longer ranges it should still be able to reach out. The skill of the shooter would be the factor then that would spell if the projectile would still be useful. Hitting the tango at a critical spot would be the answer. SWAT sniper also use the 5.56mm for their missions at times. You'll be surprised that HK even came out with a 9mm MP5 in sniper format.

I sure wish our local tech had instead developed the Garand. It would've better served our snipers than these MSSRs in my opinion. We have plenty of these Garands and have the tech to make bullets for it.

In terms of firepower the 7.62mm has indeed an advantage over the 5.56mm. Even field experiences shared to me show that veterans prefer the M14 or modified Garands in Mindanao (where are the G3s!). Only newbies want the M16 (actually the one they call Baby Armalite is what the want for fashion). Well, those who need the M203 pack the M16 for it (I wonder what happened to that mag fed 40mm grenade launcher of ours?). But as I said, the MSSR should be enough if the operator is skilled in its use. Meaning he knows its high and low points.

In my opinion, a sniper (or any marksman at that) who relies more on his weapon than on his skill is not a useful asset. An operator that knows how to work his way around the limits of his weapon is what I would get .

Advantage of sniper rifle chambered in 7.62 over MSSR?

Simply put it this way, as i understood it.

The sniper using the 7.62 ammo can shoot the one with an MSSR from a distance safe from the MSSR's range.

:armyroleyes:

I disagree, a 7.62 rifle have ballistic advantage over a 5.56 on certain scenarios but not all. Even if it does, snipercraft is a triad of marksmanship, tactics and fieldcraft. The 7.62 only addresses a part of marksmanship issues of a sniper but it does not have overall influence on snipercraft as a whole.

If all other factors are equal, I will always prefer the 7.62mm rifle. Lets put it this way, "nasa Indian yan, wala sa pana!" (quoting from Ranger snipers). :thumb:

Si CDF, kahit iron sights gamit, minsan talo pa ang naka-10x rifle scope. 20x magnification ata ang mata mo Sir? O kaya, naka-match grade trigger finger ka ata? :specool:

Thanks Guys for the input. :thumb: I ask such question coz I keep on wonderin why PMC opted for MSSR in 5.56(223 Remington) as their primary Sniper Rifle, while the International standard for sniper rifles are using 7.62mm(308Winchester) which has more ppower and longer range. Peace to all.

The MSSR accounted for most of the kills in our Central Mindanao 2000 campaign. Guess you failed to read my previous posts. Though i dont blame you this string has really gone that far and it would have been a tedious exercise. But let me answer your questions AGAIN:

1. Yes 7'62mm has longer range than the 5.56mm and the cal 50 over the latter. Ranges does not always dictate a successful sniper engagement. You have to see me first (camouflaging and concealment skills) or i could be in a better position - -the terrain does dictate most of sniper engagements specially in Philippine settings - Basilan and Jolo for instance - Linguasan Marsh and exception. furthermore, the 5.56mm has a lesser flash and sound signature making it difficult to detect. A major factor since snipers just don't shoot - they have to be sure they are not detected or all is lost.
2. Primary in our definitions means range/distance needs and not a the major weapon. The MSSR is the primary "RANGE" (actually a DMR at company level) while our Remingtons 700/M-14s for intermediate "RANGE" and Cal 50 Barret for long "RANGE" each having distinct advantages over the other based on sniping situations. So we decided to arm our different units with sniper rifles based on thier tasks and mission needs. Sniper units of PMC are intended for combined arms ie., attached to units on the need basis or tailor fitted on thier needs as dictated by terrain and mission. I wouldnt want to use a barret at less than 600 meters. We did that already and received tremendous counterfire from our adversaries since it was easily detected from its high sound and flash report.
3. The 5.56mm is superior in short range engagements due to the ff:
a. higher bullet velocity equates to lesser leads on moving targets.(3000fps vs 2680 of 7.62)
b. lower recoil allowing faster multiple engagements. At 400m we paired an MSSR and a Remington 700 to engage 6 pepper poppers each. When the MSSR finished his 6 designated targets - the Remington was still aiming for his third popper. The MSSR even after recoil maintains his sights on target (follow through) due to its minimal recoil. Can't do that on a 7.62mm due to high recoil and FOV issues vs muzzle climb of the rifle. The reason while it had more kills as an DMR compared to the M-14s in our 2000 central mindanao campaign in engaging multiple targets.

c. flatter bulet trajectory equating to lesser clicks in elevation for faster target engagements witnin its designed primary range abi;ity. or may be compensated by Simple sighting compensation based on your spotters call on impact of the snipers hits.

Common knowledge on the 5.56mm shortcomings have been based on experience with the M-16A1 and its issued 55 grain bullet (M193). These were introduced during the Vietnam War in 1966. Since then, technology had now overcome these with the newer 20" A2s with heavier barrels, Sharper twists and heavier bullets. The MSSR went further with 24 inch match heavy barrels and a lot heavier bullets to enhance its range and lethality. Since its introduction in 1996 it has accounted for more enemy kills but we couldnt interview the dead abus, MILF and MBGs to hear first hand comments on its lethality issue. any volunteers?

nice. an all-around precision rifle. well explained by mblt :bow:

in a desert environment maybe. But lets go to philippine settings as basilan and jolo. limited ranges of sniper engagements to max of 400 meters. your 7.62mm shoots - a large flash, smoke and sound report is heard and seen to include leaves and foliage moving due to concussion created by the blast. You killed one of the abus - but alas you were detected and receive counter fire and ultimately killed. you were probably the best shot in ur class. your training and gov;t investment gone all to a waste. money invested in ur training and equipment just 4 one abu wearing rubber shoes with limited training. Shooting targets is just one part of a sniping situation. you need to survive, you need not to be observed by the enemy and you need to be in good positon to shoot and escape. Another situation is the need to stalk ur prey and these situations lugging a barret cal 50 to engage a target at 400m is unthikable for the marine actually performing it. We should all try it first in real combat to learn how a handicap it will be. I'll go for the MSSR in Jolo and Basilan anytime againts an M-14, Remington 700 and M-95. The MSSR was developed and inspired by our experience in these areas.

The MSSR firing the SS109/M855 62 grain round penetrated a kevlar helmet at 600 meters both sides. The 7.62mm M-80 round did not per our test (u may research further since the round can penetrate the steel helmet at 1000m fired from a 20 inch barrel - we use 24in barrels equating to higher velocity, longer range and higher penetration). shall we contest its lethality vs the 7.62mm with hits to the human skull.

Accuracy with its DPMS heavy match barrels firing SS109/M855 is 1 MOA but with the 69 grain BTHP match HSM from Missoula, Mt is .75 MOA and the same with our reloaded Marine match ammo with the 68 and 73 grain hornady match bullets.. Minimum for a sniper rifle accuracy is 1 MOA.

But the golden rule of snipers is that rifles and match ammo is always better than people who shoot them.. seldom do you get shooters who surpass this rule - as Carlos Hatchcock of 93 confirmed kill of vietnam, Chuck Mawhinny and vasili Zaitsev of WW2 stalingrad fame. Snipercraft Skills on fieldcraft and tactics are the factors particularly cover, concealment and camouflauge ensures the success of a scout sniper in accomplisment of his mission.

Very informative explanation. So an accurized 5.56 weapon in the hands of a skilled sniper is king of the jungle, and short-range engagements. Maybe the US SF can learn a thing or two from that.

They already did with thier SPRs adopted in 2002 and the israeli DMR adopted 2000. Philippine MSSR tested 1996 and adopted 1997. We continue on to R and D the system.

Thanks MBLT6 for your crystal clear explananation regarding MSSR(5.56mm). I would not ask such question if I know that MSSR has more advantages in Philippine combat situation. I got answer from an experienced EXPERT. :thumb: :thumb:

It's very interesting that a bullet(SS109) from MSSR can penetrate KEVLAR HELMET more than Half Kilometer. :specool:
With two well explananation of MBLT6, MSSR is the right sniper rifle for our PMC with adequate penetrating capabilities at longer range and suited for Philippine Jungle environment. Peace to all.

:agree:

Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Rem)
Operation: Gas operated semi-automatic
Scope: Tasco Armored 3-9x40mm
Bushnell 3-9x40mm w/Mil-Dots (3rd Gen).
Feed: 20/30 round detachable box magazine.
Weight: 10 lbs (4.55 kg)
Length: 42.25" (107.3 cm)
Barrel: 24" (68 cm) DPMS Heavy Stainless Steel Match
20" (50.8 cm) DPMS Heavy SS Match (NSWAG 3rd Gen)
Barrel Twist: RH 1 - 8.5", or 1-8" (3rd Gen)
Stock: Black synthetic M-16A1 design with Cheek Rest.
Black syntehtic M-16A2 (3rd Gen)
Trigger: J&P match trigger
Accuracy: At least 1 MOA with M855 ammo


The MSSR was developed out of a need for a designated sniper rifle for the Landing Battalions of the Filipino Marines. They were operating on a limited budget, and didn't have the expert gunsmiths to modify a M14 or any of the other standard rifles used for sniping. But they do have the experts who know how to work on M16's. They have been producing the M16A1 under license for several years, and all the troops are framiliar with the handling of the weapon. So they did the logical thing and built a sniper rifle on the M16A1 platform.
The armorers take an existing M16A1 lower receiver and replace the upper with a DPMS match upper and Barrel. This includes a floating aluminum handguard tube and a Harris bi-pod is attached to that. They use a Tasco Armored 3-9x40mm scope, not really my first choice, in fact, not a very good choice in my opinion. But they did have a very limited budget to work with, so this is probably the one area they thought they could get away with cutting. They use a J&P match trigger that has been fine tuned. The rifles are tested and only get issued if they will shoot 1 MOA or better with M855 ammo.

I am not a fan of the 5.56mm being used in sniper rifles, but this is a unique case were it isn't such a bad plan. The limited ranges found in the Filipino jungles helps reduce some of the short comings of the round. The rifles will generally shoot right around 1 MOA out to 600 meters. The ease of training due to framiliarity with the M16 helps to reduce training costs, both for the sniper and the armorers. All in all, its not a bad implentation, and shows some creativity in developing a sniper rifle with a set of rigid constraints.

Update The Filipino Marines have started deployment of the 3rd generation MSSR with the Naval Special Warfare Group (NSWAG) and some Marines starting the transition. Changes to the 3rd Gen includes the DPMS 24 inch heavy barrel (with the NSWAG opting for the 20 inch). The new barrels have a change of twist from the old 1-8.5" to a new 1-8". The rifles also have a DPMS gas port, A2 pistol grips, and use three scope rings rather than two. The new 3rd Gen MSSR has also replaced the rubber coated Tasco scope with a Bushnell 3-9x scope with mil dots. The standard ammo for the MSSR has been changed from M885 to the federal 69 grain match. The MSSR has also began evaluation of Remington 700P's to be used as an intermediate range sniper rifle to compliment the MSSR and their long range .50 that is used in small numbers. With the upgrades to the MSSR, it has become a very nice rifle for its intended mission. Thanks to Lt Col John Martir of the Philippine Marine Corps for the updated info and images!!

This is from :http://www.snipercentral.com/mssr.htm

Given all the negative press about the AFP, its really nice to be reminded that there really are people in the service who know what they are doing.

Nice job MBLT :bow:

Thanks adroth but No need to expound and elaborate these accomplisments - you make me blush. I see more of my juniors more capable to carry on. An evolution to ensure a better generation if just given an oppurtunity as i had. You and opus met some of them in our personal interaction at pier 1 and HPN. The development of our young officers attitudes and virtues are our best investment for our AFPs future. :patrioticpinoy:

what more can i say? nice work, mblt6! :specool:

You've served your country well, ..... Marine! :armywink:

:thumb: :thumb:

:patrioticpinoy:

Thanks Flipzi.

:thumb: A one good snappy salute to you Mlbt 6 I am not a member of the armed forces ( process Engineer to be exact) but I am a fan of military technology,I hope our puliticos will help memebers of the AFP like you rather than coddling the other officers who only wanted the commisions and kick backs ( we all them who they are) and sure many civilians in the field of engineering here are wiling to contribute in the development of aircraft,firearms, armored vehicles and ships in fact some of my former co workers we now employees of 5 of them are the first batch of engineers employed by Chartered industries of Singapore.

Again Mabuhay Mblt6 :patrioticpinoy: