It is a fact that we dont need MBTs like the Abrams but we need IFVs.

The IFVs provides "sustained" and ready fire support to the infantry.

It must nonetheless carry both HE rounds and high caliber guns like the 50cal or the 25mm guns.

The AFP modenization should give attention to this type of machine. The Marines need it badly because they are often engaged in high-intensity battles down south.

The AFP needs to purchase more of these to provide the infantry more chances of winning.

I suggest arming the M113, Simba with the M242 Bushmaster or other rapid-firing 20 or 25 mm guns and must now incorporate automated targetting and fire control (plus the night-fighing capability).



WITH GUNS LIKE THIS, THE ENEMY WILL HAVE A HARD TIME HOLDING THEIR GROUND... while the infantry keeps on advancing.

The M163 20mm Vulcan is also a good option for the IFVs. See below;



It's about time we start ripping off the M60 guns in our V300 and Simbas and replace it with the bigger gun to really provide an effective killing punch against the enemy forces.

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By the way, the IFVs and as well as the rest of our armored units are helpful when the battle is accessible to them.

Beyong that comes the problem. We all know that the rebels are using the mountains and forested hills to their advantage.

The solution?

ATTACK CHOPPERS carrying the same 20mm gun like the Super Cobra or the Apache with its 30mm gun.

The Attack Choppers have thermal imagers as well and have an accurate targetting system which makes the enemies glow red even when they are deep in the forest.

That's the missing link.

The IFVs and the well-armed infantry for the accessible battlegrounds. Then the attack choppers are for the areas where the IFVs cannot go and when the enemy positions have gained vantage positions first. :thumb:

The Marines do need a lot of these IFVs.

Get the choppers going and our Marines or the Army infantry will have the greatest fighting chance in any situation.

Watch this video.

A nice concept. An APC is led by an AEV.

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In our case it shall be the MX8 Barako AEV protecting our Simba or V300.

Nonetheless, it is essential that the guns of the AEV are at least 50 caliber guns and are rapid-firing to suppress ambushers especially in the Mindanao areas.

Nice design by the Koreans

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The ultimate gun?

The MK44 Bushmaster 30mm Chain Gun
.

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This demostrates that 30mm ammos can easily penetrate even thick armors of battle tanks. Amazing.

I don't think so we need force projection and Force multiplyer MTB are that kind of a Vechicle if NPA rebel see a M1 for example he will (with accordance with human instinct) become immobilized with fear (well tanke yun) but its force projection does not end with rebels but other nations too think about it, Israel for example smaller then the philippines but has over 2000 armor vehicles most are MBT some made some capture some given some bought to other countries and not to metion advance with modification etc but the point is even if the country is small if u have advance exprience crew u got ur self a great fighting machine and serve also as force mulitplyer yun dapat i copy na philippnes as a military policy kasi people both rebels and other nation will think before attacking us as kasi even if we are small hnd ibig sabihin kayang kaya nila tayo!

hindi ko sinabi na mali si comrade flipzi or anything tama yun and it has some points but this is what he left out, i am not saying na we should get big tanks like T90 or M1s but light tanks like stingrays or strykers kasi mas baga yun sa philippines muliti paltform and light siya kahit 14 lng armor does not matter anyway, i just point out that MBT are important and should never exlude from any reason at all.
remember why the allies won if the first place kasi they made light but many tanks one of the shermans can be replace with 50 or more kahit na ang original propose ay infantry support and that is one reason that they won the war.

How about putting a self propelled anti-aircraft weapon in Pagasa Island..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3f_pEy81o&feature=related

We need MBTs for certain applications. But remember that we are an archipelago. MBTs are suitable for countries who share borders with other nations like in Israel, South Korea, and India.

Our jet fighters, frigates, land-based SAMs can easily shoot down any transport aircraft that may try to bring them in. Even if there'll be beaching, it will take time before they do so and we can react soon enough before they can even come close to the beach. Foreign Naval forces would be stupid to do a beach landing at these times. Unless, it's US or China. We simply dont stand a chance against their number and might, no matter how, unless we are as hi-tech and nuclear as Germany, Britain, France or Israel. These nations are small but they are deadly powerful.

So you see, MBTs are an overkill in our current setup. Well, as i see it nonetheless. The IFV's on the other hand are suitable for our CURRENT REQUIREMENTS. It's a cost-effective approach. Better yet, use the IFVs or the Barako AEV for developing missile-firing variants for killing MBTs. Optronic-controlled or laser-guided would be too much for any MBT.

The IFVs are small, agile and cheaper to maintain. Nonetheless, I am not saying that we dont need the MBTs. If we can afford the luxury of having them, let's do so. We can use them in penetrating heavily-defended enemy lairs like in Mindanao. It must be as strong as the Ambrams though so it wont be destroyed with a single RPG attack. Also, we can use it to repulse those surviving tanks that have succesfully sneaked past our frigates, fighter jets and SAMs.

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Not a bad piece for Pag-Asa.

BTW, we need these more than the MBTs. :thumb:

Ya but your missing my point i not talking about MBT of that kind am talking about light tanks and IFVs etc like stingrays or shiredens or strykers or Just LAV that kind of MTB's yes the point is their light u movie them by C130 by ship they can movie fast on land etc that the type of MBT am talk about just like what Mc Author talk about with President Quezon about creating the commonwealth Philippine Army, the Army must be mobile,the Navy must be light and fast and the Air force is to back up the Army and Navy(I think he didn't count the Marine corp) to defend the islands from any Invasion

I strongly agree, we need to remove the 7.62mm guns on our Mk.3 Simba and other APC's. Howwever , I'd like to have it armed with a combo of 40mm GL with 0.50 cal HMG like the Singaporeans. Its enough fire power and support for our troops. Another reason is each round of the 25mm gun is very expensive, unless we can have unlimited funds get all the hardware and minimum gun on our IFVs would be 25mm or 30mm.

MBT, I say we need them though not now and we could use something more like a light tank. If we can only make our own copies of the M-41 with a 105mm gun [or 90mm gun so we have the same round with the PMC V-300] and a co-axial 0.50 cal HMG aswell as a RCWS and onboard 60mm mortar, that can be safely fired from with in the vehicle like the Merkavas.

Akala ko ba May 2008 darating yung 8 upgraded m113?

what we seem to forget is that philippine terrain is dotted by numerous rivers which can only be crossed by vehicles via bridges.

These bridges have a capacity of 12-20 tons. Many in the provinces have 5 Ton capacities only.

Try running an 50-60 Ton MBT over that :lol:

I say, let the foreign aggressor bring in their MBTs and have them bog down in our terrain. Yari ang mga yan sa mag-bobote natin once i-abandon nila ang mga bogged down na MBTs na yan.

Awme videos there flipzi!

Here is a video of an armored vehicle that were victimized by an IED, and it shows how effective it is to have a V-shaped hull. Observed how they evacuated the crews and the injured one and how other armored assets surrounded it for protection. It also seems like the owner of that video who posted it also thought that there was a dead body thrown by other soldiers ontop of the front hood, which actually a part of the exhaust system or a muffler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir72Ay7PWbQ

Good video indeed.

Fast reaction from air force attack choppers, tanks and the other APC units.

Sana ganun din sa AFP. Kaso the norm is tapos na ang laban at halos nauubusan na ng dugo ang sundalo bagu dumating air support at tanks.

wala pahina pa talaga tayo pag dating sa ganyan.....

Flimsy bridges are not a problem for tanks, or more precisely - army engineers.
Any invading army worth its salt will bring its own bridging equipment, and many modern MBTs don't even need bridges, they are capable of crossing rivers up to 4 meters deep.

Its a myth that we are invulnerable to MBTs due to our numerous rivers and the weak bridges that span them. An invading force with the right equipment can actually cross all our major rivers with minimal difficulty and that's a fact.

It's likewise a myth that if an aggressor sends over an armored division we will roll over and die because we do not have MBTs of our own.

I'd love to see enemy army engineers erect their bailey bridges in a disputed river crossing :)

But are we invulnerable to MBTs because of our terrain ? Hell no, I wouldn't say that. It's just MBT un-friendly :armyLol:

We will not roll over and die but with the current state of our armed forces, conventional defensive anti-armor tactics will almost certainly fail.

And I'm almost certain that the invading forces will not send an armored division, it will instead send tank-heavy mechanized infantry divisions for obvious reasons.

Sir, their engineers will be protected by armor and mechanized infantry, CAS and artillery. They will not be sitting ducks.

Agree, but only the thousands of islets in our archipelago are MBT unfriendly. The major strategic islands of Luzon, Mindanao and Leyte, Panay and even Cebu are actually suitable for tank-heavy assault.

Armored Divisions and Mechanized Infantry Divisions have very similar equipment, they only differ in the proportion of the tank and mechanized infantry battalions. (An armored division will have 6 tank and 4 mech inf bat, while an mech infantry div will have 4 tank and 6 mech inf battalions).

I guess we will be going into a discussion of tactics now :armysmile:

Tank units typically travel in a column, but in attack will change into a line. Our country is dominated by mountanious terrain and the level, plains area where tank can easily switch from column to line formation are usually the few places we can plant our rice. Rice paddies are notorious for being tank bogs.

In mountanious terrain, a tank column will often not be able to switch to line formation as is thus is danger of being picked off one at a time by AT teams.

The same will be true at river crossings, choke points which can be easily exploited by an astute commander.

What I'm essentially saying here in our home country terrain, the main advantage of an MBT, its mobility and superior firepower will be somewhat negated because of difficulties on having them to bear on the enemy.

I'd be happier with state of the art AT weapons than expensive MBTs. We have some very good light infantry anyway :armysmile:

Fellows,

If i may add; for what purpose was the Scorpions then? How did the Japanese tanks vis-a-vis the American/RP tanks perform in our soil during WW2? Does today's technology set aside the need for an MBT or even light tanks like in WW2?

scorpions are 8 ton light tanks suitable for our terrain. MBTs like the abrams are 60-65 Ton behemoths.

the jap tanks used here in WWII are light tanks, the US shermans were 30 ton medium tanks. Even so, in the leyte landings, many shermans were abandonned after getting stuck in the mud. A bogged down tank is such a lovely target.

I'm not saying that we whould forego MBTs. The best defense one can have are tank based defenses. But my thinking is, if fiscally one can only have a choice between MBTs and AT weapons systems, I'd go for ATs.

And besides, the threat the army faces now does not have armor assets.

Great help, gen1.

Thanks po.

tanks and IFVs could actually travel over rice paddies during the dry season, the invading army would obviusly exploit this by doing their thing in the summer when the central plain of luzon would no longer be an obstacle.

and I believe the invaders would not rely on tanks alone, they would bombard the chokepoints with fighter bombers and gunships, thats why whoever gains air superiority first would be the victor.

they would also send paratroopers to secure bridges before they could be destroyed by the defenders.

we have good light infantry but they lack mobility so it would be take them too long to support a chokepoint under attack or move to another defensive position in time.

thats why we need IFVs, which is the root of this thread. :ssalute:

With that said..The insurgents will resort to IEDs or mines which are easily produced and the military does not have the budget or should I say the will. I also hardly doubt a full fledged attack on Philippine soil by anyone in the near term

and like what the russians did in WWII waiting for father winter, we will wait for mother rain :armywink:

sorry for the OT discussion on MBTs though

Well as i post in old topic can't find it thought i said that it would be easier if theRP buys Strykers or a LAV or the M8 18.12 sh tn is the weight of the Stryker/LAV same vehicle and M8 level one Armor is 19 tones so mas maganda kung Stryker kuhan natin ka sa M8 or LAV kasi the Stryker can be in put in many ways

* M1126 Infantry Carrier Vehicle (ICV) : Armored personnel carrier that can carry nine troops. It can be armed with M2 0.50 machine gun, MK19 40 mm grenade launcher or M240 7.62 mm machine gun.
* M1127 Reconnaissance Vehicle (RV)
* M1128 Mobile Gun System (MGS)
* M1129 Mortar Carrier (MC) armed with 120 mm Mortar
* M1130 Command Vehicle (CV)
* M1131 Fire Support Vehicle (FSV)
* M1132 Engineer Support Vehicle (ESV)
* M1133 Medical Evacuation Vehicle (MEV)
* M1134 Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) armed with TOW missile
* M1135 Nuclear, Biological, Chemical Reconnaissance Vehicle (NBC RV)
* MXXXX Self-propelled 105 mm Self-Propelled Howitzer (SPH)
yan ng need ng Army and the marine corp maybe we should buy some for them
and saan may Self propelled Anti air variant rin para ok na well saan na sa government wish list to kasa mag update ng M113 or mga old tanks ng AFP ito has it all mag request na lng tayo ng Anti air Variant

Worldwide use as IFV with different version and variants, PIRANHA lll can be considered as PA next IFV.




It has also amphibious features for seawater operation.. PMC can also considered this versatile IFV

Ya nice find but can it have different Variants models like the strykers u see we need a Multi role platform for our Armed forces use but nice find

For this set-up, magandang Replacement sa Simba, :thumb:

Ya but as i said we need a multi role platform so unless PIRANHA lll can do what the Stryker can like can medi vac or recon or can carrier a 105mm or act as a TOW carrier am not going to buy that and the GOv should to it can only do one thing amphibious which is one of the requirements of a new filipino IFV i only has one so no can do beside after the Insurgency problem its territory problem we have to face so Amphibious just will not do

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view...ct50uj&tt=74141[/IMG]




Tama po si Zero wing, mas maganda ang STRYKER. It is a multirole IFV
Tulad ng mga ito:


# M1126 Infantry Carrier Vehicle (ICV) : Armored personnel carrier that can carry nine troops. It can be armed with M2 0.50 machine gun, MK19 40 mm grenade launcher or M240 7.62 mm machine gun.
# M1127 Reconnaissance Vehicle (RV)
# M1128 Mobile Gun System (MGS)
# M1129 Mortar Carrier (MC) armed with 120 mm Mortar
# M1130 Command Vehicle (CV)
# M1131 Fire Support Vehicle (FSV)
# M1132 Engineer Support Vehicle (ESV)
# M1133 Medical Evacuation Vehicle (MEV)
# M1134 Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) armed with TOW missile
# M1135 Nuclear, Biological, Chemical Reconnaissance Vehicle (NBC RV)
# MXXXX Self-propelled 105 mm Self-Propelled Howitzer (SPH)


source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker#Variants

pasensya n po Zero wing kung naulit ko ang na post mong variants ng Stryker.


Tamang tama talaga ung strykers sa needs ng army. Lets hope that the army chief will decide to purchase this ifv's. It will be a great help for our soldiers, for their mobility, fire support and protection. :aberet:

Ako rin, because the Strykers was really built for the Army :thumb: , imagine, if we had replace the simbas with the same numbers (150) we got big time :fire:

Well thanks guys pero gusto ko sana dalawa yung Stryker and the US marine LAV25
or ask Gen Dynamics to build a special Variant of Strykers for the AFP kasi may wala pa mga Variants na needed sa atin like Air Defense etc so thanks for the support of the Idea and forgot ko to add na may Amphibious capability thanks again.

:ssalute:

how about the german weasel 2? it is also an IFV, small and agile, suitable for us filipinos (due to our short size than the germans)... and also can be multi-roled... perfect for the needs of our military... can also be transported by air...

:thumb: Go Wiesel!

For me, i'll add the K21 or the KIFV of the Korean army. at 26 tons, 70kmph,amphibious and of all its edge over the compettion,frontal protection over 20mm ammunition carried by every BMP vehicle!Its currently the highest protected armored IFV ever on the stats.

A close competitor would be the CV90's. But id go korean for its excellent armor,amphib capability and its L730MM/20MM automated gun on its basic APC configuration. at $3.3M a piece and slated this year to roll out form mass production, we get cutting edge technology at a friendly price.

For the numbers, id get say 120 K21 basic variant with the 30mm L7 gun for our basic artillery AIFV on field. Then maybe 40 units K21 FSV with a 90mm Cockerill gun same as in our V300's for Busting Bunkers and fortifications. Then i'd also get 50 units of configured K21 Light attack tank variant with a 105 gun still from Textron Cadillac similar to the turrets on their stingray tanks. These will be for breaking dfensive lines and will serve as for primary offense. To complete it, 30 units K30 Anti air AIFV twin 20mm guns and 30 units of KP-SAM anti-air missile defense systems for nutralizing any intruding aircraft 7 km away!. Just check out their stas on the wiki guys, and fell impressed! :bow:

Gee, I like the K21 NIFV, but not it's cost. 3.3million dollars per unit! hehe :bow:
Pero kung may pambili naman, why not? It is good. AFP must check it out. :fire:

But they should also consider the Stryker. It is relatively cheaper as compared against the K21 NIFV. It's cost is at least 1.42 million dollars per unit. But Stryker can fit to almost any role in the battlefield. Plus it is reliable. It's only drawback however is its high center of gravity. It can tip over if it came across an IED or runned over a mine. Plus it can be stuck in the mud because it doesn't use tracks unlike the K21 NIFV, and that sucks when you are in the middle of battle. But its drawbacks can be minimized if it used properly. But over all, Stryker is really good for our military.

K21 NIFV & Strykers for the AFP! :thumb: