What are your dream ships for our PN?

aircraft carrier too ambitious? :lol: how about four arleigh burke destroyers and 10 meko frigates?

Even Taiwan couldn't get the Burkes.
Mekos or the new Singaporean stealth frigates.

Depends on the role the ships will do.

For inland patrols, a bazillion of those South Korean Patrol Killers - Medium. We already have a few of them, I say we get more. Fast and armed enough to take on the occasional smugglers and pirates.



For off-shore patrols, a few more of the US Cyclone or the Aussie Fremantle FACs. Both the US and Australia are retiring their fleets of Cyclones and Fremantles, I say we buy/beg/pray/etc. for a lot of them.



For MCMVs, convert those frigging Peacock-class vessels we have. Better to convert those glorified patrol vessels for mine-countermeasures work than procure new ones.

For ASW, I like the South Korean Ulsan-class small frigate, albeit with a few modifications. Modifications would be to have:
- a RAM surface-to-air missile system
- a helo hangar and deck w/ an ASW helo
- a Goalkeeper or Phalanx CIWS
This is to complement its existing armament of 76mm gun, 8-cell Harpoon SSM, and triple-torpedo tubes. With this kind of armament, this frigate will now be classed as a small ASW frigate with limited AAW and ASuW capability.



For multi-purpose roles (ASW, ASuW and AAW), the German F124 frigate is a nice platform. Has all the bells and whistles plus it uses the Aegis-like Active-Phased Array Radar (APAR) system.



...or the Dutch De Zeven Provincien Class which uses the same radar system as the German F124 frigate.



For submarine ASW, I like the Aussie Collins-class SSK. Modify it with a Stirling AIP and it will kick some serious ass. No one cannot discount the force multiplying effect of a decent submarine force in the modern battlefield. Nuff said...

For submarine patrols, get the German Type 206 patrol SSKs. Germany is retiring her fleet of 12 Type 206s. We should get some.

For amphibious operations, the Singapore Endurance class LPDs would be a nice replacement for our ageing LSTs, with a slight modification to its weapons. Namely: a CIWS and a RAM SA system. So that it will have a decent self-defense capability against air targets.

And if we are ambitious enough, yes, an aircraft carrier would be nice for power projection. Nothing big like the US Nimitz class. Something small like the Spanish Principe De Asturias class or the Italian Garibaldi class. It should be enough to project power in our part of the world.

Yea, getting the Freemantles and Cyclones from the US & Australians isnt impossible. Its just a matter of political will and great effort from our administration.

Those FACs will be very useful and effective here.

bro aldon pede malaman kung ano mga klaseng weapons at misilles kaya dalhin ng Cyclone at Fremantle?

palno ko kasi mag PN o marine e kung walang barko yung navy di mag marine na lang ako.

Just the normal complement of guns you would normally find on our patrol crafts. No missiles, though the US Cyclones have a Stinger missile station for limited air defense capability.

For the role it is intended, you dont need missiles. You use it chase down smugglers and pirates, then deploy your RHIB (with a SWAG team) to board them.

The DCN S-80 Scorpène Class patrol submarine...

me? i would like to see six La Fayette (design is similar to the Singaporean Formidable class/La Fayette Delta) class multi-purpose frigates enter PN service...

* 8 Harpoon or MM40 Exocet SSM
* 32 VLS ESSM SAM
* 1 76 mm OTO Melara Super Rapido main gun
* 2 30 mm guns
* 1 25 mm Phalanx CIWS
* 2 triple 12. 75 inch torpedo tubes for ASW torpedoes
* an aft helicopter deck and hangar for 1 S-70B Seahawk multi-role naval helicopter

hehehehehe! peace! :D

here's a Singaporean La Fayette Delta (Formidable class) frigate:

Welcome aboard Israeli - we appreciate your participation here at PDFF. :)

Singapore's stealth frigates are impressive but I just don't like the way it looks. There's just an aura of incompleteness in that ship but it is just me of course.

Warships bristling with radar masts, missile launchers, torpedo launchers, and CIWS just look formidable to me than clean, clutterless low RCS ships. :blink:

I'm thinking the same too, Stoner. Besides, 'low RCS' does not mean 'invisible' right? It only means you a smaller radar footprint than you actually have. But if you are using an Aegis or APAR system, you could still see the sucker. And to paraphrase that quote: 'If you can see it, you can kill it.'

f.y.i., the vessel on the picture is still incomplete. hehehehe! :D the picture was actually taken during the launching for RSS Formidable, the flagship of the six-vessel Formidable class (La Fayette Delta) frigates of the Singaporean Navy.

the artist's impression of how the Singaporean La Fayette Delta frigates will look like can be seen at http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f...ormidable2.html

Is that ship very expensive can we not afford ships like that?

We can never afford that warship kid, not in my lifetime anyway. But who knows by the time you become an officer in our armed forces, our country is rich enough to be able to purchase ultra-modern fighting ships. :)

Yes, they're expensive. From what I've seen about its specs, its tech-heavy too. It has a crew of around 70, which for a ship that size is actually small but is possible due to a lot of automation. I doubt we can afford one.

I like the La Fayette/Delta design too. The only thing that bothers me is its limited ASW capability. It doesn't have a hull sonar. True, it has VDS but a real sub-hunter needs a hull sonar. And in our region, the seas would soon be teeming with subs. In that case, I'd rather have true sub-hunter rather than a stealthy frigate.

aldon,

the Formidable class frigates maybe expensive when you buy it now but given its high automation and 70-man crew, it will be cheaper to maintain and operate in the long run, unlike when you buy a cheap, upgraded, 180-man crewed and soon-to-be-retired-from-the-service US Coast Guard Hamilton class high endurance cutters which are cheap to get now but will be more expensive to maintain and operate in the long run due to the mounting costs of upgrading the vessels to keep them operational.

if we cannot afford the La Fayettes, how about MEKO A-100s? these 1,900-ton guided-missile corvettes can serve as powerful surface combatants for the Philippine Navy...

MEKO A-100 Guided-Missile Corvettes for the Philippine Navy:

* Displacement: 1,900 tons
* 8 Harpoon SSM
* 16 vertical-launched ESSM
* 1 76 mm OTO Melara Super Rapido main gun
* 2 30 mm anti-aircraft guns
* 1 25 mm Phalanx CIWS
* four or six 12.75 inch torpedo tubes for ASW torpedoes
* an aft helicopter deck and hangar for an SH-2G Super Seasprite or AS-565MB Panther naval helicopter


photo of MEKO A-100 multi-purpose corvette design for the Polish Navy:

israeli do you have an estimate of the cost the Formidable and the Meko 100? I think its possible for us to purchase a watered-down version without all the expensive battle management electronics. When Taiwan took delivery of their La Fayettes from the French, the weapon systems aren't exactly the same as those of the French version.

Take a page from the New Zealand program then. The Kiwis have a co-production agreement with the Aussies for 2 Anzac-class frigates (which btw is a Meko200 variant). 10 Anzacs will be procured, 8 for the Aussies and 2 for the Kiwis. When delivered, it was armed with the usual guns and torpedoes but the only missiles where the ESSM VLS surface-to-air missiles. Though the ship can accomodate another ESSM VLS, a Harpoon SSM, and a Phalanx CIWS.

True enough, the Aussies will be upgrading their Anzacs with "two very short range air defence weapon systems to provide 360° close-in protection" (a RAM SAM perhaps?); an infrared search and track (IRST) system for detection and tracking of low-level aircraft and anti-ship missiles; and an APAR radar system.

perhaps the best way for the Philippines to reduce the cost of acquiring new platforms like La Fayette Delta frigates and MEKO A-100 guided-missile corvettes will be to enter into a "license-production" agreement with the foreign shipbuilder concerned (e.g. DCN of France for the La Fayettes, Blohm and Voss of Germany for MEKO A-100s). having the vessels built on local shipyards will really help reduce the cost of procuring them. however, the local shipbuilding companies that will build the vessels should be "modernized" in order to meet the demands of building those modern vessels. such "modernization" can be done through technology transfer from foreign firms and direct supervision of the shipbuilding process itself by representatives of the foreign firms.

how's that for a suggestion? ;)


peace. :)

another dream vessel that i wanted the Philippine Navy to have are MEKO A-200 frigates. the latest country to acquire MEKO A-200s is South Africa, which bought four MEKO A-200s from Germany.

although the MEKO A-200 is as big as a typical frigate (the MEKO A-200 has a displacement of 3,500 tons), the South Africans officially designated their MEKO A-200s as "corvettes". here are some information regarding the South African MEKO A-200 corvettes:

Main characteristics ship platform:
Length overall: 121.00 m
Beam overall: 16.34 m
Depth: 9.70 m
Design draught MS: approx. 4.40 m
Design displacement: approx. 3,500 t

Propulsion - CODAG WARP:
1 gas turbine (20,000 kW)
2 high-speed diesel engines (5,920 kW each)
2 shafts fitted with controllable pitch propellers
1 waterjet
Cruising speed: > 21 kn
Maximum speed: > 27 kn

Modules:
2 weapon modules
23 palett modules
2 mast modules

Crew :
Total: 100 +24

Helicopter:
aft helicopter deck and hangar for 1 helicopter (the South Africans chose the Super Lynx as the helicopters for the MEKO A-200s)

Weapons of the South African MEKO A-200 corvettes:

8 MM40 Exocet SSMs
32 vertical-launch Umkhonto SAMs
1 76 mm OTO Melara main gun
2 35 mm dual purpose guns
2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes for ASW torpedoes


artist's impression of a MEKO A-200SAN corvette:



actual photo of SAS Isandlwana, the second of the four-vessel strong MEKO A-200SAN multi-purpose corvettes:




* along with the four MEKO A-200SAN corvettes, the South Africans also purchased three Type 209/1400 submarines from German firm HDW. here's a photo of a Type 209/1400 submarine for the South African Navy:




peace. :)

meko ships are good but our ships are better :bounce: and meko always partial to exocet ssm which is not as good as harpoons :rocketfire:

If Im not mistaken Singa, its up to the government who ordered the ship to choose what kind of weapons the ship would carry, so if the choice is Harpoon then the Meko could be configured to carry Harpoon SSMs instead of Exocets.

:beer:

delta class frigate reportedly costs $168 million. some things to warn navy folks about, the PN navy has never bought brand new warships bigger than patrol boats...in its entire history.

apo, if the $168,000,000 per ship price tag for the DCN-designed Singaporean La Fayette Delta frigates, all of which are armed with 8 Harpoon SSMs, 32 vertical launched Aster 15 SAMs and 1 76 mm OTO Melara Super Rapido dual purpose main gun and equipped with an aft helicopter deck and hangar, is right, then those frigates are CHEAPER than the proposed corvette that the Philippine Navy has ordered from Canadian firm CAE! the price tag for each of the CAE corvette for the Philippine Navy is worth $200,000,000! the Philippine Navy proposes to purchase three of those CAE corvettes for a total cost of $600,000,000...

aside from the Singaporean La Fayette Delta Frigates, another batch of brand-new multi-purpose corvette that have a cheaper price tag against the CAE corvettes for the Philippine Navy is the Project Baynunah multi-purpose corvettes of the United Arab Emirates. the four-vessel Project Baynunah multi-purpose corvettes, based on the Combattante BR70 corvette design of French shipbuilder CMN Group, are armed with 8 MM40 Exocet SSMs, 16 vertical-launched ESSMs and 1 76 mm OTO Melara Super Rapido main gun and equipped with an aft helicopter deck and hangar for one Eurocopter AS-565MB Panther multi-purpose naval helicopter. the price for a single Project Baynunah multi-purpose corvette is just $125,000,000, $75,000,000 cheaper than the proposed CAE corvette for the Philippine Navy.

here's a sketch of the Project Baynunah Multi-Purpose Corvette of the UAE Navy:




given the choice for the Philippine Navy, instead of getting those more expensive CAE corvettes, i would rather opt to have:

(a) add $72,000,000 more to the $600,000,000 budget and get four La Fayette Delta Frigates from French shipbuilder DCN...

or

(b) add $25,000,000 more to the $600,000,000 budget and get five corvettes similar to UAE's Project Baynunah Multi-Purpose Corvettes from France's CMN Group...


peace... ;)

they might cost $168 because the pricce may have been offset since many of the parts and equipment of the ship was built by the singaporeans themselves, taiwan bought 6 la fayette for $2.8 billion, and these came without french weapons or command suite, weapons had to be bought from the US or indeginous equipment were used, but the near pariah of selling to taiwan, may have made the french to ask for higher prices. it would take some good negotiating to get those ships for $168 million. but dalta class frigates do have their obvious advantages, as are other singaporean ships i.e. PMC request for the PN to acquire endurance class vessels instead of PN plan of more frank bessons,

priorities of the whole AFP is to support various ground troops in counter-insurgency campaigns, the PN is no exception. external patrol units are old simply because PN is commited to internal operations in teh forms of patrol boats and increased naval transports (hence, which is whyt eh PN is willing to buy more logistics ships). the patrol boat force of the navy is fairly new and with capable units, in the ofrm of halters, PKS, PKMs, and various other ships. there are high availability rates of the PN patrol force and fairly new systems without much support and funding from manila (kudos to the navy). the most that the navy is willing to get might be either OPVs, or second hand (40yearold) but still capable hamilton high endurance cutters, once they are retired from USCG (if they ever get them please arm them with harpoons , some air defnses and anti-sub wsuite and torpedoes so that it can be a frigate, but just by having it refurbished and keeping current 76mm guna and CIWS would be good) . the PAF focused on internal operations also has commitments to its claim to the spratlys, which is why it would want OPVs or hamilton(s).

what i would like to see the navy get instead are surveilance/radarELINT/maritime patrol aircraft instead. these are needed for surveilance of a vast archaepeligo, especially in our troubled waters, as well as surveilance roles for varous ground operations taken by the marines or PN SWAG, such as coordinating naval operations and landigs of ground troops and basic all-day all-weather surveilance. various planes can perform these duties. the PN uses BN islander and nomads for these roles but they lack radar surveilance and in many cases they lack radar at all and cannot be used 24/7 all-weather situations. knowing the fact that the PN or PAF does not have these planes(PAF has Fokker 27 MPA, but this has been turned tinto transport planes with radar and surveilance equipment stripped), 3 US eP-3e, are stationed in mactan airbase, cebu which is relegated to these duties on behalf of the AFP. the current AFP plan is to use converted C-130s in MPA/surveilance roles, which is inherently very expensive, or to use P-3s which are alsovery expensive. planes to consider:

*BN Defender-successor to the BN islander the PAF/PN has. great MPA/surveilnace aircraft, and the navy already has experience with operating the islander which is similar to the defender. the government can enter a license-building agreement with britten norman for license producing defenders through PADC, which the navy and airforce did with the islander(and other license produced aircraft). these can be armed with various anti-ship anti-sub equipment and weapons to take them out.

*C-26 -the PAF requested this aircraft from the US as a replacement for the nomads. the US has given these aircraft to various latin american countries to track drug runners and guerillas that support them in vast and dense jungles.

*CN-235PMA-spanish or indonesian built and are very reliable and cheaper than C-130s. transport plane as well as MPA, these can perform bot jobs and do them well, can be armed or unarmed with various anti-ship, anti-sub duties. brunei as well as south korea has bought armed MPA versions.

*E-2C-radar/surveilance/ELINT plane used world wide for increased air defense and patrol capabilities. israel is a place to get second hand but upgraded examples , mexico being the recent buyer.

Apo Lakay,

nice post. your insights on modernizing the Philippine Navy truly makes sense on the current situation that the Navy is into.

about those WHECs, i'm wondering if the USCG has plans to retire some of them soon and hand 2 or 3 of the vessels to the PN. there is no news coming out of the US about USCG plans other than plans to "retire" some Cyclone class patrol boats. after September 11, i think it will take some more time before the Americans finally retire the Hamilton class and hand some over to the PN. however, just in case the PN gets at least three Hamilton class WHECs, i want to see each of the vessels armed with 8 Harpoon SSMs, 32 vertical launched ESSMs for air defense and 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes for ASW torpedoes. such an array of weaponry aside from the 1 76 mm OTO Melara dual purpose main gun, 1 20 mm Phalanx CIWS, 2 25 mm Bushmaster low-angle guns and 4 12.7 mm machine guns that each vessel already has will convert the Hamilton class WHEC into a potent frigate for the Philippine Navy. again, the possibility of the US transferring Hamilton class WHECs to the PN is far from happening as of the moment. :)

on the topic of offshore patrol vessels, i really want to see helicopter-equipped Tenix 80-meter type OPVs enter service within the Philippine Navy. i do not see any problem with Tenix building six helicopter-equipped OPVs for the Philippine Navy since the Australian shipbuilder has provided EXCELLENT service to the Philippines in the form of the recently purchased search-and-rescue vessels that it built for the Philippine Coast Guard.

here are the specifications of the Tenix 80-meter OPV based on the company brochure:

http://www.tenix.com/PDFLibrary/41.pdf


Main Characteristics:

Length (overall): 81.50 metres
Beam: 12.05 metres
Draught: 3.4 metres
Displacement: 1,395 tonnes
Speed: 24 knots (operational)
Complement: 84
Range: 3500 nautical miles
Endurance: 21 days


Weapons and Electronic Systems:

* 76mm gun
* 2 x 25mm gun
* 4 x 12.7mm machine guns
* Electronic support measures
* Helicopter facilities
* Chaff
* Surveillance radar
* Navigation radar
* Fire control radar
* Electro optical fire control


Options:

* Surface to air missiles
* Surface to surface missiles
* CIWS
* Surface launched torpedoes


given such specifications, we can build a variant of the Tenix 80-meter OPV for the Philippine Navy that is:

* armed with 8 Harpoon SSMs, 16 vertical-launched ESSMs, 1 76 mm OTO Melara Super Rapido dual purpose main gun, 1 20 mm Phalanx CIWS, 2 25 mm guns, 4 12.7 mm machine guns and 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes for ASW torpedoes; and

* equipped with an aft helicopter deck and hangar for a multi-role naval helicopter like AS-565MB Panther, AB-212ASW and SH-2G Seasprite.


how do you find such specs for an OPV of the Philippine Navy?


as for the maritime patrol and radar ELINT aircrafts, i really want to see the CN-235MPAs and E-2Cs enter PN/PAF service. with the Philippines having a great relationship with Indonesia, i guess there will be no problem for the PAF just in case it purchases 4-6 CN-235MPAs from Indonesian firm IPTN. as for Israeli E-2Cs, i guess the Israelis do not have stocks of E-2Cs anymore after the Mexicans purchased some E-2Cs for spares sources. the only hope of the PAF/PN to get E-2Cs would be from those stocks at the AMARC.

hope you and our other colleagues could share their comments on my post. thanks. :)


peace! ;)

The Tenix 80meter is good choice but let it carry SSMs and SAMs for all around capability

the hamiltons start gong away 2007. thats when the first WMSL, Maritime Security Cutter, Large; comes into service. i know that the philippines planned to spend $600million on 3 corvettes, and erap wanted 3 sa'ar5 for $100 million each. delta frigates cost reportedly $168. since we are talking about the USCG, the philippine navy can acquire these some of these USCG WMSLs. they would be basically frigates and they can be armed specifically to PN standards,. here's a description of the ship:

*421-feet (128 meters)
*4,112-ton displacement at full load
*screw combined diesel and gas turbine power propulsion plant-max speed 28 knots
*aft launch and recovery area for two rigid hull inflatable boats,
*flight deck to accommodate a range of rotary wing manned and unmanned aircraft *state of the art command and control electronics.

the launch and recovery area for 2 RHIBS is a big plus for the navy since they have law enforcement duties to perform in external waters in the 200EEZ, such as SWAG operations, search and rescue. and the positive thing is that this ship costs the USCG $140 million combined. hopefully by 2007, the PN could have enough funds to fund this or any new-built frigates.

about the 80meter tenix OPV, isn't that too much armament for an OPV. if its armed to the teeth like that its more likely a corvette. OPVs are supposed to be very long range, long endurance patrol ship that can withstand very rough waters. armament are supposed to be defensive weapons (main gun, CIWS and/or defensive anti-air missile system, small caliber guns) and a helicopter armed with anti-sub warfare suite and weapons and SSMs. at the most some SSM capability. OPVs are mainly modular and in time of war, then they can be armd to the teeth, but not when its in patrol duties. but sometimes going against th grain works.

as for the CN-235 and E-2C , it think that the CN-235 could go to the PAF since they have a requirement for a short/medium range transport and MPA aircraft, they can retire or sell the nomads and the F-27 be relegated to transport roles, and the PN can have defende-aew because the navy has extensive experience with the islander which is similar. as for the E-2C there is still one for sale from israel. but there will be a need for a long range AWAC-type plane if not now, in the future, whern the PAF starts operating fighters. but if i was the philippines, i would ask for those C-26 aircraft.

...for comparison/reference

Canada will be purchasing 12 new OPVs for only 500 million dollars - around 42 million dollars each - probably barebones but still relatively cheap.

Link

a unique proposal mentioned in the article > the ships will be manned by a mixture of military and civilian personnel.

I do believe that the PN should make OPV a priority as previuosly mentioned.. overall, i prefer corvettes (MEKO, Sa'ar 5) over frigates.. matter of fact, i prefer submarines over frigates.. How much does a Scorpene costs?

Missile Corvettes: fast, deadly
Diesel Submarines: silent, deadly

:bounce:

Scorpenes, depending on the systems package could cost anywhere from 300 to 500 million dollars US

Malaysia ordered two Scorpene boats in 2002 for 1 billion euros.

Even one SSK in the PN is good enough.

I hear Israel's Dolphin and Sweden's Gotland are cheaper than Scorpene

The order was for 2 Scorps and 1 Agosta.

:o that much huh?... oh well, if only we can afford it..
South Korea is building their own subs right?... :rolleyes:

I have no practical experience with naval matters but i like the idea of

A: hitting your enemy fast and furious (missile corvettes)
B: hitting your enemy and he never knew what hit him(submarines)

sokor subs are german type 209s

yes, the current fleet of South Korean diesel subs are license-built Type 209s. the South Koreans are also able to secure the rights to build three Type 214s. :)

how come when harpoons have longer range than exocets?

the new exocets now exced ranges of harpoon

The psychological impact of a prowling hunter killer SSK to the enemy cannot be measured...