the Royal Thai Navy has just received its first of two Super Lynx 300 ordered for 25million pounds, 50% of which is payable in kind.

can we not negotiate a similar 50% money 50% in-kind deal?


Super Lynx of the Royal Malaysian Navy

yoshino, Super Manananggal , meron kami... :tomcat:

or should it be the PAF?

anyways, India is considering maritime aircraft proposals, maybe we could learn a few things from them:

India Studies Maritime Aircraft Proposals
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI

Eleven overseas companies are vying to sell the Indian Defense Ministry two maritime surveillance aircraft for $27.7 million in response to a global tender the government floated in September, a ministry official said.

French companies ATR and Dassault Aviation, Spain’s CASA, , Sweden’s SAAB, Brazil’s Embraer, Ukraine’s Antonov, Russia’s Ilyushin Aviation, Germany’s Dornier, Canada’s Bombardier and U.S. firm Lockheed Martin have submitted proposals, along with India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. The Defence Ministry is reviewing the technology of the offers, the ministry official said.

In the past, it has taken India up to 10 years to complete defense acquisitions, due to bureaucratic red tape. But the Defence Ministry official said the maritime surveillance aircraft purchase will be completed within a year.

Detailing Navy and Coast Guard requirements, the official said the twin-engine plane and its sub-systems should be tropical-weather worthy. Other essential parameters specify that the aircraft should have:

• Short takeoff and landing.

• A patrol speed of 180 to 405 kilometers per hour.

• Internal and external fuel storage.

• A range of up to 2,000 nautical miles or a minimum of eight hours.

• Ability to drop paratroops.

• 360-degree radar and day-and-night capabilities.

The aircraft’s primary role will be maritime surveillance, sea searches and rescues, casualty evacuation, pollution detection, control and response, fisheries control, offshore security, communications and logistics, and command and control. They also will be used to monitor sea trade routes. Eight percent of India’s trade is conducted by sea.

The planes must be capable of surveillance from India’s western state of Gujarat to Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand and Indonesia, a senior Indian Coast Guard official said. It also is important for the aircraft to fly low-altitude reconnaissance for long periods.

The Navy’s current fleet of aging maritime surveillance aircraft is inadequate to monitor India’s more than 2.5 million-kilometer coastline. The Coast Guard has no long-range maritime surveillance aircraft.

It is because of this current weakness that India is having its three remaining Il-38 anti-submarine warfare maritime surveillance aircraft upgraded in Russia. The work will include installation of the new Sea Dragon mission system being developed by Ilyushin Design Bureau, Moscow.

The upgrade of India’s eight aging Russian-built Tu-142 maritime surveillance aircraft are in limbo following the Navy’s rejection of a Russian bid to perform the work. Russia has refused to permit India to have the planes upgraded for a lower price in Israel.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=543408&C=asiapac

:agree: Stoner.


We need these MORE THAN INDIA does.

:exactly:

We must also look into the possibility of arming these with ASW system and make it capable of dropping paratroops or SWAGs also.

IMO the PN should operate MPAs and my choice is the Embraer P-99. The P-99 has low acquisition and operating costs and is versatile enough. Its fitted with anti-surface vessel and anti-submarine capabilities.

Dragon,


That sounds nice!

More info on that one, please. :armygrin:

This is a good idea, the argentines I think uses P-99 as part of the lessons learned from the falklands. They realized the Pucara and the Super Etenards maritime patrols scared the hell out of the British in committing assets to the amphibous campaign. If the P-99 were available back then, with the lack of british long range offensive aircraft and aircraft carrier, they could have held falklands preventing an amphibous assualt which doomed them.

Mexico too operates the P-99.

Embraer P-99 Info

I went to the site and learned that the P-99 is jet powered. Is it cheaper to operate than prop-driven MPAs?

Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Forces retired their fleet of 21 PS-1 Shin Meiwa ASW flying boats in late 80s.

With the recent Japanese government offer to sell arms to ASEAN countries, maybe we could procure some of these mothballed aircraft for PN maritime patrol and SAR role.

ASW variant:


SAR variant:

I'm all for this. Seaplanes are perfect for the Philippines. These would also settle any lingering questions about who gets to fly these birds. The Air Force doesn't belong in the water.

The P99 looks promising.



EMB 145 RS/AGS (Remote Sensing variant)


EMB-145 AEW&C (with the Ericsson Erieye AEW Radar and Command and Control System, the EMB-145 SA / Surveillance Aircraft))



ADDED DETAIL:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...azil/emb145.htm

Hello all,

I want to place a recall for sightings of all military planes and helicopters inside or outside the Philippines.

Currently I’m writing a article about the Philippine defence forces. Every help is welcome, so if you interested please let me know.

Best regards

Arno Cornelissen
Dutch Aviation Society / Scramble
------------------------------------------------
Benelux editor & Asia co-editor
website Scramble Homepage
e-mail [EMAIL]arno.cornelissen@scramble.nl [/EMAIL]

Stoner, adroth:

The very site from which the photos/info come has this addendum to the PS-1 writeup

"Although the idea of using a flying boat for ASW operations had its attractions, in that the aircraft could set down on the water and drop a dunking sonar to hunt for submarines, in practice land-based aircraft could do a perfectly adequate job of ASW at much lower cost. Procurement of the PS-1 was halted in 1980 in favor of the Lockheed P-3C Orion, and the PS-1 was completely out of service by 1989. "

Like the ex-USS Cyclone, another expensive-to-operate reject?
Any superior alternatives to the Cyclone were out of our reach, and we're most grateful for the ship. The superior alternatives to the PS-1 may still be within our capability to acquire.

While it looks 'cool' **rolleyes**
There's general reason to doubt that the Embraer P-99 is cheaper to operate than a prop-driven alternative, or offers as much range and loiter time. 548967's post reflects such a suspicion. The Lockheed P-3 Orions are propeller driven are they not? Anyway, the performance stats alone (from the links already provided, among others) should tell:

P99 Range (12,000 lbs load) --- 2,460 kilometers (ferry range)
PS-1 Range (35,000 lbs load) --- 4,200 kilometers (ferry range)
P3 Range (32,000 lbs load) --- 8,950 kilometers (ferry range)

A seaplane, given its extensive contact with water (saltwater, at that) is inherently more expensive to maintain than land-based aircraft. I heard the old PBY's would cost 3-4x as much to maintain as DC-3's, but then you get some pretty impressive landing/takeoff location flexibility...

So yes, the PS-1 wouldn't be a bad acquisition at all for the PN.
I think I'd still prefer an airstrip-launched tuboprop MPA.

JM2P

Good points there Horge.

The US will be retiring their Orions when they get their new Multimission Maritime Aircraft.

Any chance we can acquire some?

Aviation in the Mexican navy

It may be of some interest to look at how the Mexican navy does it.

Even Mexico with its proximity to the US is still buying Russian-made platforms like the An-32 which is a very capable transport aircraft.. The MD 902 Explorer would be a very good scout/recon/light attack helo for the PAF due to its NOTAR configuration.

Aerocobra,

With a published ferry range of only 580 km, I don't think so.
It's better than its cousin MD 520's range of 387 km, and its max. load betters the 520's 970 kg by 420 kg...

The BO 105 boasts pretty much the same range and load capacities as the
MD 902 Explorer, and is already in current use. Local manufacture of the MBB Bolkow Bo 105 is proven do-able, too.

Ultimately for me, the range and endurance requirements for an MPA in the Philippines, particularly with respect to our broad EEZ, points to a turboprop fixed wing aircraft.
And hey, we've proven we can make those types of aircraft here too.

Manufacturing a helicopter is one thing, assembling is another. PADC assembled the BO105. The idea was to eventually manufacture the BO105 under license. We didn't get there.

Now just as starters, I would highly reccomend the Orions (P-3C's) to begin with just to extend our air maritime capabilities. The only problem though (and forget budget constraints, because this has been an all time stumbling block) , do we have the proper bases for it?

I mean do we have the land listenning (sonar and gps) posts for these beasts? I can always easily suggest the S-3B Viking, but that may sound out of reach. Your call....

From what i heard the S-3B Viking has a HUGE operating cost so the Orions would be the better choice, but their is alternatives as rebuilt commercial aircraft, one exampel is the old Fokker Maritime Enforcer or its cheaper brother the Fokker Maritime Patrol. Some sources says that you had Maritime Fokkers ??

But another alternative that is cheaper to buy and fly is Raytheons Beech 200T, for its size it has al long operating range (1,807 nm 3,347 km) Max. cruise speed (336 mph, 292 kt, 541 km/h)

www.raytheonaircraft.com

MORE INFO: BN ISLANDER



According to news reports, the Navy just received 4 "Islander" turboprop planes and a BO-105 chopper that were sent to Australia for upgrading.

The report said these are for MARITIME PATROLS.

Whatever our concern is, at least the Navy knows what is must do to protect our territory.

Is it goodbye, P3 Orion and the rest now?

I've seen in the newspaper the photo of the upgraded BN Islander.

I wonder why they didnt pursue getting or upgrading to this type?

If this current upgrading is just part of the interim program, they should consider this one for the next phase of the program.

SAMPLE Photos of the more-equipped variant:



Britten-Norman BN-2T-4S Defender 4000

Check the surveillance equipment fitted on its nose.

=====================================================



BN-2T Turbine Islander

Check the surveillance equipment fitted on its side and it's nose-mounted radar.

=====================================================



BN-2A/B/T ISLANDER


Specifications:


PILATUS BRITTEN-NORMAN BN-2A/B/T ISLANDER

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Engine: Turbine engine on the BN-2T variant.

Operational Speed: 150 knots (280 km/h).

Service Ceiling: 18,900 feet (5760 metres).

Maximum Range: 1500 nautical miles (2775 km).

Avionics: The Bendix-King RDR-1400C search radar is fitted on the BN-2T variant.

Armament: None.

Self Defence: None.

Comments: Due to a requirement for pilot and observer training, an initial order for six Pilatus Britten Norman BN-2A-21 Islanders was placed with the United Kingdom. The first three aircraft arrived at Cochin on 18 May 1976 while the remaining arrived towards late 1976. Seventeen Islanders were acquired by the Indian Navy till date and these include eleven examples of the BN-2A-21 variant (IN-126 to IN-136) and six examples of the BN-2B variant (IN-137 to IN-142). At least six aircraft were upgraded to the BN-2T 'Turbine Islander' standard in 1996-97 and also features the Bendix-King RDR-1400C search radar.

BN Islander's Homepage

For pretending sake (as there is no funding for anything new right now) I propose either one of two options for the Philippine Air Force and Phil Naval MPA requirements.

One, the PAF needs an MPA that has medium to long range and can carry a vast amount of sensors as well as growth capabilities (i.e., Xtra room to install more equipment) and finally in addition to possessing good loiter time the respecitive MPA must be capable of being armed with anti-ship missiles and possibly torpedoes and depth bombs.

For these specifications and given cost-considerations such as maintenance per hours to flight time per hour ratio the CN-235 MPA or the C-295 MPA are the best choices available right now.

I read a P-3 Orion aircraft website that said the Flight Hour Cost for an Orion is a whopping $12,000.00 U.S. per hour to operate!

Now since the PAF has stated in the past an actual requirement for a new Tactical Light Transport aircraft to replace the N-22B Nomad, I suggest the Phil Air Force procure (6) CN-235 MPA and (16) CN-235M-300 transports. Both are based on the same airframe, use the same engines, transmissions, etc, etc. And four of the latter could be used for Pilot Conversion Training on type leaving another dozen for Tactical Transport duties throughout the country.

For the Phil Navy, I'd suggest either procuring the same identical MPA as the PAF like a 'joint procurement' of the CN-235 MPA -or- purchase at least a dozen new Pilatus Defender 4000 (armed) coastal MPA.

The Defender 4000, has an outstanding loiter time of over 10-hours from base and can carry up to 2,000+ Lbs of rocket pods, 20mm cannon pods and even light weight, short-range Sea Skuka anti-ship missiles for dealing with pirate scum and to enforce coastal waters.

I would base (6) Defender 4000 MPA's at Cavite, Luzon with two for conversion training and the remaining for maintaining constant Maritime Patrol coverage over Luzon. Three other Defender 4000's would be based all the time on Palawan to cover the Sprately's and a detachment of three MPA's would be based on Cebu, to help deter further piracy activities in the South near that hell hole in Zambango where most of the pirates live.

The Phil Air Force's CN-235 MPA's operating from Villamore, Luzon would provide the vital 'over-lap 'in aireal coverage round-the-clock/day-night.

The Phil Navy's Rotary Wing Flight could be tripled (18) by purchasing surplus, ex. German Army BO-105 C's to a respectable force with four choppers based in the South at Davoa, Mindinao, anf another four operating at say Tawi Tawi Naval Bases. That would still leave ten BO-105C's based at Cavite, Luzon the main Naval Air Base.

I agree that the Defender would be a good choice, but i am not sure that you would have that loiter time with full load under the wings or onboard.

Second, could you explain how you propose to use missiles i peacetime to enforce your coastal waters? or stop Pirates?

sirs, how about E-2C Hawkeyes? I think Singapore got 4, 3 on 24 hours rotation with 1 on reserve. 5 crewmen operates it and the USN says it can handle the job of the USAF AWACS.

http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/airforce/e2chawkeye.htm

The 4 Isreali E-2C which were first delivered in 77-78 and given modifications since then including In-Fight-Refueling probes are no longer in Israel except for one. 1 stayed in Israel for its AirForce Museum, the other 3 sold to Mexico in 2002. Deal included refurbishment and training as well as spares. First unit delivered in 2004. http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/israel/types/grumman.htm.

You can see picture in Mexican colors, http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/album52?page=7

2004 lang? Anyway how much did it cost Mexico per unit? Abot kaya ba ng Pinas? 3 units were good for distribution sa Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao. Seeing it came from Israel for sure it's well maintained.

P-3 Orions are terribly expensive to maintain and operate. what the Philippines needs in maritime patrol duties are either CN-235MPAs (ask the Indonesians... we might get discounts from them since they are the ones marketing the CN-235MPA, CN-235 tactical transport plane and other variants of the CN-235 to foreign buyers) or C-212 Patrulleros. :specool:

Wanted to second the CN-235s from Indonesia but google turns up this report that Pakistan, for example, paid $49-M for four CN-235-220s back in 2002. Two and a half plus billion pesoses for 4 new turboprop MPAs.

the Pakistanis could have purchased those CN-235s from EADS CASA of Spain instead of the Indonesians. honestly, i have no idea of how much the Spanish version and Indonesian version of the CN-235 cost but one thing's clear: between the P-3 Orion and the CN-235MPA, the CN-235MPA is more affordable to buy and maintain.

a "cheaper" alternative to the CN-235MPA is the C-212 Patrullero, a variant of the C-212 Aviocar STOL transport plane. here's what http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/c212/ is saying about the C-212 Patrullero:


C-212-400 PATRULLERO MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT

C-212-400 can be configured for maritime patrol, with mission workstations and two observer stations in the main cabin. A 360° scan search radar is fitted in a radome on the underside of the fuselage on the Patrullero version of the aircraft. The ventral installation of the radar eliminates the distinctive platypus nose radar, which provided a 270° scan in earlier versions of the Patrullero. The maritime patrol aircraft is fitted with satellite data transmission, a photographic camera with position and time recorder and automatic flight navigation with pre-recorded search patterns. A six-station internal telephone system is linked via the operator's console to the external communications system. An electro-optical turret with forward looking infrared and television camera provides day and night capability. The aircraft is equipped with rescue equipment.


here's a photo of a C-212 Patrullero, courtesy of http://www.airforce-technology.com:




a photo of a Venezuelan C-212 Patrullero, courtesy of http://www.fav-club.com/:

According to that linked report, the Pak AF did pay the the $49-M for 4 CN-235S to the Indonesians.

The C-212s look more doable. It seems to be in service in a lot of Latin American nations (Spain connection), even the smaller ones, so they're probably cheaper. The transport facility is also a big plus. Some countries also bought dedicated med-evac C-212s. We could use some of those. The good loiter time (9 hrs?) could also make them useful for ground observation.

The C-212s are also interesting because we could possibly upgrade to bigger CN-235s (or hey, CN-295s) a decade or so hence if there's some commonality to the avionics or what.

On second thought, though, I wonder if the C-212 Patrulleros offer a signficant advantage over the Islanders we already have as they appear to be in the same class. Maybe what we just need, if we can buy more MPAs for present use, are more Islanders? Platform commonality so as not to complicate support.

About the bigger (and, of course, more expensive) CN-235 and C-295...in the future when funding allows, these proven aircraft are worthy of serious consideration as the common platform both for longer-endurance Navy MPAs and PAF "intermediate" airlifters (those transport missions were it would be more cost-effective than using full-blown C-130s).

(BTW, the Indon CN235 makers seem to have run into problems and apparently now out of business, so Spain's sole producer of the aircraft.)

It would be cheaper if the AFP purchase the Airframes, let local industry do the integration for propulsion systems and avionics. Part of what you pay in foreign systems is the man hour of each person integrating the system, the airforce have competency in retrofitting power plants while several local companies can assist in retrofitting the avionics (they do this for the local airline industry).

if cost is going to be the deciding factor, better to go with converted civilian transports like the CN235, C212, Beech King Air 200/Beech 1900, Islander/Defender, etc. these will surely be less expensive to operate than second-hand Orions or Hawkeyes.

besides, there are plenty of companies (Raytheon, Elbit) offering patrol/surveillance payloads tailored for these kinds of airframes - best of all, these things are modular, so a body can install what he can afford now with the option of adding additional elements as funds become available.

the PN (or PAF) SHOULD operate MPAs, it's the most effective option, in cost and (more importantly) operational terms.

now, funds willing, this is the kind of "MPA" i'd really be wanting the PN to be operating someday. oh well.

heres a good choice, Brazil is buying 50 Beriev 103s...

can be configured for MPA, transport, SAR roles

http://www.beriev-usa.com/main/index.html

Either Turbo-prop version of BN2T Defender/better yet, BN2T-4S dubbed Defender 4000 or C212, as basic plane to serve as radar and weapon-armed MPA and short-range STOL cargo aircraft. Replaces the NOMAD which is used in both roles. Supplement current Islander fleet in short range transport duties, freeing up hueys which have taken up that duty. Locally assemble from Britten-Norman through PADC again? C-212 looks pretty good also. Or ask US for transfer of C-26.

back when... the AFP plan for MPAs were actually for MPA-modified version of C-130. The PAF was seriously considering buying British surplus C-130, but looks like the deal fell. :dunno:

From Fight International:

BO105 offer

Eurocopter is offering the Philippines coastguard additional secondhand BO105 light twin helicopters. The coastguard, which now only operates two BO105s, requires several additional rotorcraft, but budget constraints limit cash acquisitions. Eurocopter hopes to overcome these hurdles by offering to finance up to 10 additional BO105s. The manufacturer is eager to place former German border guard BO105s, with the Philippine navy viewed as another possible candidate.

This is a nice proposal for the PN and PCG. How much does the price per unit of the BO 105 ? And eurocopter company should consider some financial package also to further push thru in the deal.

Saw this site, maybe they better take a look:

http://www.fuzing.com/vli/000410acf242/Helicopters

or why not they try this one for added firepower our ships lacks, CAS for our Marines:

http://www.pilotmarket.com/aircrafts/Aircr...ting-12497.html