The PhilAF does not need to purchase Lead in Fighter Trainers. The Augusta S211 is one and is more than qualified. More funds should be given to bring back the other grounded S211 back into service.

Save the money for real fighter aicraft.

In a way, I agree but the current S211s should be upgraded to incorporate the latest additions found in more modern trainers. Considering that our "most" latest fighter was the F5 current technology already made major leaps thus when (hopefully not if) we do get fighters there will be a major difference from what was last handled. We should also invest in simulators to better break in students.

Although I for one would still go for my original idea of investing heavily on simulators then on 2-seat fighters to train our aviators (not pilots).

The Philippine air lines and other airlines regularly raid the philippine air force for pilots.

why doesn't the philippine govt pass a bill requiring the philippine airlines to subsidize the training and purchase of simulators and trainers for the philippine air force ?

Its about time the philippine air lines stop acting like a parasite and siphoning off air force pilots trained with Filipino taxpayers money.

I don't believe they "raid" the PAF for pilots. They get the pilots who have finished their mandatory service after being trained by PAF. If we can offer our aviators incentive at least half of what our useless parasites in Congress and Executive office have then we wouldn't need worry about such an issue.

sure they do. in addition to PAF pilots waiting for their mandatory service to finish before they go to PAL, there are PAF pilots who try to get out before their mandatory service even finishes. in both cases, this is due to the lure of higher salary, and who wouldn't ? If i was the PAF pilot, i would. Rather , than increase the air force salaries which would result in the retention of old pilots whose brain and reflexes will be slower in air combat, its better to for pilots to have a higher turnover rate so they leave while still young.

however, PAL is still getting off on free basic training. Consider, if we had no air force, then the PAF would be forced to shoulder basic training cost of their pilots, so its about time that the commercial airlines including PAL help shoulder the basic training costs of air force pilots specially because we are the 3rd world country.

yes you are right,we do not need a LIFT thats just a waste of money,we should just repair those S-211 that are rusting right now or just buy a flight simulator or something

Is there any chance that PAF could obtain some S.211 from Singapore? They are now replaced by Pilatus PC-21, and soon might be available for Philippines Air Force :thumb:

Saludos.

PilotoRico

For me, I still believe that we need those LIFTs. Like the YAK-130, M346 or AT-50. Not only that they can be used solely in training, but we can also use them in patrolling our maritime boundaries. We can even use them in COIN operations as a ground attack aircraft and air support for our boys and girls fighting at the ground.

About sa PAL, hindi kaya tumaas ang pasahe natin sa mga eroplano pag isinakatuparan yan? :lollol:

Back to the training of our aviators, diba pwede din naman nating ipadala sila sa ibang bansa para doon magsanay? Ganun din kasi ang ginagawa ng ibang mga bansa. Pwede naman yun diba? :armysmile:

we can use MRFs for patrolling,COIN and other stuff.well like you said c.c. pwede nman nting ipadala ang ating mga piloto sa ibang bansa para magsanay,so its just going to be a waste of money just spend those money in advance MRF

Keep the S.211's, bring back to airworthy the remaining aircraft and add four to six former RSingAF aircraft to have a flightline of twelve...... Use the momey for other much needed aircraft (helicopters. MPA aircraft, COIN etc....)

Saludos :salute:

^^

I understood well your point sir. You’re right, instead of purchasing Interim fighters or jet trainers, save the funds for us to buy good MRFs. Pwede rin naman tayo magpadala ng piloto sa ibang bansa at dun sila sanayin.

Now, about patrolling our maritime boundaries, it is not good to na laging gamitin ang MRFs. Jet fuel is expensive, and because of that, it is not ideal to use MRFs just to catch smugglers and illegal fishermen. The solution is that we should also acquire 2-3 P3 Orions. Malaking tulong ito sa atin.

Singapore Seeks $325M in F-16 Pilot Training and Support

23-Sep-2009 16:20 EDT

Because space is at a premium in Singapore, that country has been training its F-16 pilots for over 17 years at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona.

The Singapore government is seeking to continue that training tradition…

Singapore is asking the US government to continue its F-16C/D pilot proficiency training program at Luke Air Froce Base in Arizona under the Peace Carvin program, as well as purchase munitions, services and support for the F-16C/D aircraft. The estimated cost of the request is $250 million.

Defense Industry Daily

FYC

a bit wierd when some of us say that PhiAL does not need LIFT.

you really need LIFT aircraft... first you need trainer like pilatus..and for advance training you need LIFT before move to jet fighter like F-16, MiG, Su or F-15.

you cannot rely on simulator.

thats why we are going to send our pilots in U.S to train them para wla ng LIFT na kailangan.

Why should we talk about a LIFT? For what, after the S.211 we have nothing else. I think the S.211 is LIFT enough for the moment, buy another batch of them from Singapore (they are going to be surplus next year!!!) and keep the operational flightline at 10+ aircraft. I expect that soon or later the Philippines should go for a batch of 12 to 16 F-5E Tigers for air defence, all other budget for helicopters (combat/SAR/transport) and C-130 overhaul.... :thumb:

Let's hope the next year will be the magic year for Philippines... :patrioticpinoy:

Saludos,
PilotoRico

Do you have any source or data how much those S-211s,if you know a source or data kindly share it with us,tnx.I don't agree about acquiring F-5s though,their are other jets that is affordable like the JF-17 which is only 15-20 mil dollars (700-900 million),Hal Tejas which is 15-24 mil dollars and the F/50 fighter.

Hello Maverick,

The source is from RSingAF pilots who I spoke flying the PC-21 right now. When all the Pilatus are delivered to Australia (they are based there and replace the S.211's) , the SIAI jets will return to Singapore and offered for sale! This is expected to be in second half of 2010. I think that those trainers are well maintained and could be of interest to the Phil.AF :thumb:

About the fighter aircraft; I should never go for the HAL Tejas... the aircraft has not been proved as doing well, still in pre-production status.... and let be honest; we all know that if you buy a type that is not in use in any other air arm, don't buy it. If the F-5E is not the aircraft, then go for proved aircraft like Mirage F.1, Kfir C.7/C.10 or AMX (Italy has some 20+ in store awaiting possible sale, they offered them also to Afghanistan...).

Personally I hope that the Phil.AF will go first for transports (overhaul C-130's), SAR and attack helicopters and MPA aircraft... but that is my personal thought.

Saludos :salute:

PilotoRico

These aircrafts your offering are all obsolete,we cannot rely on italian planes cause airforces that have italian planes find it hard to maintain them.

Hello Maverick, you are right... but I am afraid that all aircraft that could become Phil.AF next fighter are obsolete :sad2: Simply because there is no budget to buy factory-fresh fighter aircraft. Even if the F-16 would be offered, then they will be from the first batch (Block 15/20) produced aircraft..... almost 30 years old! We (Holland) fly the F-16A/B since 1980, only 85 are left and all up-graded to MLU4 aircraft... several older airframes are sold to Chile and Jordan. Now the aircraft become older, it's more difficult to maintain a operational squadron which is normally 18 aircraft, we are happy if 10 are available all together (so 40+ any time, including the F-16's operating under NATO in Afghanistan)...

What is left? Chinese? Russian? All unreliable suppliers (ask Venezuela.... they are really unhappy with the logistic problems with Russian Su-30 and Mil helicopters...). Perhaps should Phil.AF think about a non-fighter aircraft Air Force :scared:

Time will tell my friend,

all best.

Between Chinese JF17 or FC-1 and Korean A/T-50? I go for the Koreans, why? No political Strings Attached to it....considering we have established a Memorandum of Agreement for Bilateral Defense between Philippines and South Korea.

We won't have enough headache if we acquire Military Hardwares from them since its a government to government agreement.

Lets wait a little longer since Israel, Iraq, Singapore and Turkey will be acquiring those Golden Eagles as Trainer for F16s or as Light Combat version of F16s.

I think that's the best option... wait a little longer and watch the Korean aircraft closely...

Bye

that A-50 by the way has an upcoming fighter variant.

Yup, the F/A-50 variant will be using Elbit avionics technology from Israel and so less of becoming a dependent on US Technology. But I am not sure if we can afford this since this variant will be more expensive than the A/T-50 LIFT variant.

As for now, PAF needs the LIFT variant since it can be flown as Trainer and Light Combat Aircraft with Air-to-air missile capability aside from its capability to fire AGM-65 Maverick missile for Naval Strike. However, the LIFT has no BVR capability not like with the F/A-50 Fighter-variant wherein it has a BVR strike capability with the incorporation of Elbit Avionics.

AFP is slowly adopting Korean-made armaments and equipments and that in 2-5 years time we can now acquire those Golden Eagles for our AirDefense.

Ya since we have one system to train and use in combat we can full superiority of our airspace and not to mention cost on among other things will be cut since our cadets and our airmen are using particularity the same aircraft.

but if we don't go all Korean maybe we should go Indian Like buying out the tejas since its the only one in our price range that we can afforded but still its a second choice :patrioticpinoy:

we can do counter trade or whatever you call it where you will trade numerous clothes and other stuffs and just add additional money i think the Koreans will agree to that kind of deal since sokor is i dunno donating.? they could donate those clothes to Nokor

True. The S211 is in the same class as the PC-21, Super Tucano and T-6B, so it makes sense the RSAF will retire it after the PC-21 goes into service. For the LIFT role, RSAF is choosing between the M346 and the T-50. Meaning the S211 is not a LIFT-class trainer.

IIRC, the cheapest Western LIFT-class jet in-service and ready-for-production today is the MB339CD (>$10 million). After that, choose between the M346, the T-50, and the Hawk ($25-30 million).

RE: Does the PAF need a LIFT? No pun intended, but I say stick to the plan, "stepping stone approach". Buy those ex-RSAF S211s to build our own fleet back to strength, look at upgrading them to M311-standard later to get embedded simulation and ACMI. Then settle on an affordable LIFT for the next step. Then get an affordable and proven interim fighter, 2nd hand will do. Get simulators, make the most of what you have. Finally, once you've proven your ability to operate and maintain all these planes, that's when you start thinking about 5th gen fighters.

Lessons of history, those who forget are doomed to repeat them. If you buy a $100 million jet today and your poorly-trained pilots end-up crashing them all over the place tomorrow, you'll be living with your mistake for the next 50 years.

There is no doubt that our S-211s are good trainers but they are not LIFT aircrafts. Also, our pilots have already grown old with it. I think they really need to put their skills to a whole new level. Now, if the Philippines is really serious about having a strong air force, I think LIFT must be seriously considered.

There are many contenders in the LIFT market to consider like the M-346, A/T-50, EADS Mako, etc. Let's just hope the government picks out the best.

:patrioticpinoy:

Perhaps you are right about the LIFT aircraft, but they should do that after the following projects for the next years;
- Buy from Singapore there surplus AS.211 jets (8+)
- Attack helicopters (night attack capable) like AH-1W.
- Refurbish another two C-130's or get two from US surplus.
- four MPA platform like ATR-72 or CN.235MPA
- Some medium sized helicopters for ©SAR (perhaps same model as Coast Guard).

I don't know in which time-scale the Philippines Gvmt is thinking about buying fighter aircraft, but I have the feeling that it will be after 2012 (or later).

Hope I am wrong :wow:

Saludos

You're right about those other priorities but our topic is about LIFT. Let's just stay on the topic first.

:btt:

So you do not think the S211 is a LIFT (Lead-In-Fighter-Trainer)?

Seriously guys, how do (did) we in the US transition from a T-45 to a F-18E/F or T-38 to a F-15 or F-16? Are you saying that the S211 is inferior to the T-45 or T-38?

The SIAI-Marchetti S-211 is basic turbofan trainer. By the way, the S-211 was not made by Augusta. The S-211 has already evolved as the M-311 and now manufactured by Aermacchi.

Aermacchi designates the M-311 (or the earlier S-211) as a basic turbofan trainer and not as a LIFT jet.



For more infor, kindly visit the source -

http://www.aermacchi.it/commercial/military-trainers

You might noticed that our PAF Command does not really follow a normal doctrine about LIFT and Air Superiority type of jet.

AS211 - the one used by our AirForce is an attack version of the S211A Basic jet Trainer aircraft. Is LIFT really necessary to be a Transonic or Supersonic type?

For US Standards- F5s are not a Full-mission Fighter jet but as Tactical Fighter jet which is now consider as LIFT since US used it for Tactical combat training as aggressor while 3rd world countries used it as Air superiority fighters like our PAF.

What is important is that a Fighter jet can do the role or missions that its supposed to do. With budget constraint country like us, a LIFT like the A/T-50 could easily be convert it to Air Superiority or Air Defense to fill-up that role.

Really, so now the S211 was never marketed by Agusta?

The S211's USAF counterpart is the T-6 Texan, not the T-45 or the T-38. The S211 actually lost to the Texan (a propeller-driven aircraft) in a head-to-head contest for the USAF's basic trainer contract.

Back then, the PAF's plan was to get one jet for basic training (S211), then another for advanced/LIFT (the Hawk). What they've ended-up doing is less "doctrine" than a stopgap from sheer lack of options. Panakip-butas, to put it bluntly.

Let's face the fact that when you buy a LIFT (M.346 or T-50) plus a fighter aircraft (F-16/F-18) you also need a very large budget :scared: We all know that the current budget is not enough to keep our Hueys, Broncos, AS.211 and C-130's in the air. So currently the wish for a LIFT is on the shelf, and stay there unless some one is to provide us (US) aircraft through FMS programme.

To fight the Philippines main problem (the terrorists) you need another kind of aircraft, not LIFT or F/A-18's! Perhaps the combination T-50/A-50 would fit the Philippines Air Force well (and reliable source). Get 18 A-50's and 8 T-50's, you have a good platform plus no maintenance/logistic problems.

I still think that the step from AS.211 --> A-50 (or even F-5E) is good enough.

What is your opinion about that?

Saludos.

The S-211 is a basic turbofan trainer and the AS-211 is a variant combining the basic turbofan trainer role and attack role.

T-50 is classified as a LIFT jet and T/A-50 is a variant combining the LIFT role and attack role.

So, if PhAF acquires the T-50 or A-50 or the T/A-50, PhAF will already have a LIFT jet whether you like it or not.

Cessna 172, Agusta SF-260, Agusta S211 and then MRF.... now you want to purhase a LIFT before, a MRF?

PhAF sequence...

T-41, Alenia Aermacchi SF-260TP/MP/WP, SIAI-Marchetti S-211/AS-211, then none...

Maybe, a LIFT with a secondary role as an attack jet would do for now as the next, then comes the real MRF.

The PhAF may skip a dedicated LIFT aircraft but not the essential LIFT "training/schooling".

A-50/T-50B works for the PAF: You get your LIFT aircraft--and your interim fighter in one airframe. The A-50 has the engine of the Gripen and the Hornet, so your support crew's gaining usable experience as well. Obviously cost is a problem. Maybe getting the A-50 in an arms package with other Korean military exports (like naval vessels and helicopters) will help?

RE: Doing away with MRFs outright, that deserves a thread of its own IMO.