Is this news true? anyone who is privy to this News?

I just cant paste the article but its from the newspaper. Itt says the Philippines is buying 24 fighter planes from Israel and it mentioned the Kfirs.

That was long time ago, right when they were considering F16s and MIGs then.

Tagal nang usapan yan. Pero gaya ng F16 ay malabo pa yan.

if this is recent news then you post just the link to the news

Nope i was dupe the news was very old... sorry fellows

What do you think of the C-/ Kfir guys? They're very robust and are excellent jets and I believe affordable.

Dude, instead of creating a lot of new topics, why don't you just look at the past topics since most, if not all, of the things that you are talking about have already been thoroughly argued and discussed. Just browse through some of the old stuff.

Guys what do u think of the Kfir General characteristics

* Crew: One
* Length: 15.65 m (51 ft 4.25 in)
* Wingspan: 8.21 m (26 ft 11.5 in)
* Height: 4.55 m (14 ft 11.5 in)
* Wing area: 34.80 m² (374.60 sq ft)
* Empty weight: 7,285 kg (16,060 lb)
* Loaded weight: 10,415 kg (22,961 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 14,670 kg (32,340 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× IAl Bedek-built General Electric J-79-J1E turbojet
o Dry thrust: 52.89 kN (11,890 lb st)
o Thrust with afterburner: 83.40 kN (18,750 lb st)

Performance

* Maximum speed: 2,440 km/h (1,516 mph)
* Range: 770 km (480 mi)
* Service ceiling: 17,700 m (58,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 233.3 m/s (45,930 ft/min)

Armament

* Guns: 2x Rafael-built DEFA 553 30-mm cannons with 140 rounds per gun.
* Maximum Ordnance Load: 6085 kg (13,415 lb)
o Bombs: Mk-82, GBU-13 LGB, TAL-1 and TAL-2 CBUs, BLU-107 Durandal, HOBOS.
o Unguided rocket launchers
o Missiles: Shrike ARMs; Maverick ASMs; Sidewinder, Shafrir, and Python-series AAMs.

do u think the air can get them to replace our F5? :patrioticpinoy:

The PAF has shelved its plans to buy IAI Kfirs due to Arab opposition. Ayaw ng mga Arab countries like Saudi Arabia for us to buy these Israeli jets. Since we have more than 1 millions Pinoy OFW's deployed in the Middle East, we have no choice.

Besides, luma na itong mga Kfirs na ito, having been copies of the older Mirage fighters. We might as well buy upgraded F-5E's or even F-16A/B's.

So what bkit mga filipino ba sila do they live here we can buy anything we want we are a free sovereign nation wala sila pake if we buy IAI and about the OFW may mga abuse cases sa Middle east even thought we are in good relations with them so bkit makakaeffect sa defense decisions natin but i think we should get this one kasama na yung magic 2 missile so why did u say that they should address those cases lucky sila may needs tayo sakanila like oil and income they so return the favor and loyalty of their filipino works and teat them like human beings not just working animals that their just paying off topic yan man :patrioticpinoy:

Zero,


There is such a thing in this world as real-politik.

We have at least 500,000 OFW's in Saudi Arabia alone. The real figure might be closer to 1 million. The other Middle East countries have at least a million more Pinoy OFW's.

If the Arabs don't want us to buy any jets or missiles from Israel, we have no choice but to do so. It is more important that millions of Pinoys have jobs in the Middle East where they are sending billions of dollars back home and keeping the Philippine economy alive in the process.

What's the use of ticking off the Arabs for such a minor issue? As I stated earlier, there is nothing the Kfir that, say, an ex-USAF F-16A/B with an MLU upgrade can't do.

At the same time, we need the jobs for our people and the Arabs have millions of jobs that they themselves don't want to do.

I beg to disaggree my friend.

If we always abide by what the other country dictate to us, then we are opening the door for ourselves to be always abuse by intimidation.

We cannot just simply follow orders and give an impression that we are weak in decision making from other country that is only concerned to its own interest.

Whatever we want and need for our defense program is not for other nation to decide.

cheers :armycheers:

I Agree with you. Plus if I may add; we dont have money to buy even 3rd generation combat planes. Politicians and corrupt govt and military officials
did it in for us. eX. Maj. Gen. Carlos Garcia. SOOOOO SAAAAD :headbang:

Well both sides have a point in the issue but i must say that we need to improved our airforce what can help but battle tested aircraft but as i said we are a free country and if they don't want us to buy from Israeli so what? its our free right to do so why not give us ex us or any aircraft ? and about our great ofw if the Arabs teat them more lees that their treating them we can do alot of things to help them so what sa deal about it ? in my view they should be afaired of a filipino pull out but then again OFW 's need money so they would pict to stay but i stand to my decision to buy this aircraft
:patrioticpinoy:

Zero

No man or country is an island anymore in today's world. We have to play pakikisama to the Middle East if we want them to continue to employ Pinoy OFW's.

Unless the Republic of the Philippines is in imminent threat of invasion and no other country would sell us weapons and only Israel will sell us Kfir jets, then and only then should be buy Kfirs. Both dire conditions don't exist. Not now and not even in the foreseable future.

There are millions of Filipinos without jobs in the Philippines right now. This should be our no. 1 priority over and above everything else. Mahiram man aminin, yung ekonomiya ng bansa ay nakasandal sa mga likod ng mga OFW's.

What's your point on insisting that we buy IAI Kfirs? So we can just tick off the Arabs?

These Kfirs are DOA as far as the PAF is concerned!

Zero and Jvelarde,

There is an alternative to mend this issue of buying K-Firs from Israel without ticking of the Arabs. But of course this will need the cooperation of the Israel goverment. This alternative would be getting the license to build the K-Firs in the Philippines. This would generate jobs and the PAF can buy them from the local manufacturer at a cheaper price since the labor in the RP is a lot cheaper. I know its a long shot but hey, anything is possible. RP can also do this with other countries that are willing to license their respective MRF production not just the K-Fir.

Just my thought....dream on!!!

Akimima,


This is a nice idea but I doubt we can pull this one over the Arabs.l

This won't work either since if we license the Kfir from Israel, we will still pay them royalties which is just like buying the jets from them directly. I don't think the Arabs will be pleased with this either.

We might as well buy the South African Cheetah which is a copy of the Kfir.

BTW, I am not in favor of the PAF getting the Kfir or the Cheetah. Both of these are copies of the older French Mirage fighter.

MRF's are not a priority for the PAF though, not before 2012 according to the latest multi-year plan.

Though the K-fir is a proven hardware in combat, it is already outdated. Yes you are right that the PAF is not ready for moden MRF's. In terms of maintenance cost and training, it is still far off from making itself a force worth respecting especially within the SEA region. Proper and wisely spent resources will be a key to make this a reality. I am not also for US made MRF's due to the history of their packages that have many strings attached. I have already mentioned this in previous threads that PAF or AFP as a whole must sprad out its menu not only to US but also other arms dealers like Russia, Sweden, France to name a few. MRF's made by these countries are more than equal to that of the US.

Look guys were arguing in circles Akimima ur idea about having a deal with Israel is good ya it will create more jobs for the jobless and its cheaper to for the PAF and u jvelarde u said about pakikisama hey they need something from us and from what i head about the middle east are bad many abuses on or Brothers and sister Muslim or not i am not a resist or anything its about human rights and national pride If u are a ture filipino i am not saying ur not u should never think about what the arabs might think or going to do but our own we need something to keep us safe not just diplomacy but a little stronger i am not saying a military build up but a military that we as a nation can be proud of and the best thing is a strong navy and strong Air force and if they a problem who cares bakit ? if we have a problem here they can help ? hindi na man so bakit and if they band OFW in their country not our lost but theirs


:patrioticpinoy: :salute: FIlipino pride baby !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As an interm fighter, the K-fir is ok. It is faster and more powerful than the F5. but current needs of the PAF is more important like more attack helos and strike bombers. Aircrafts that will benefit COIN is a need right now. The deadline set by GMA to have the rebels defeated by 2010 is not realistic given the current economic situation and arsenal the Philippines has. If economic reforms are contniued, a realistic date would be 6 to 10 years from now. By then the K-firs would certainly be obsolete and would be futile to pursue them. Like I said in previous threads including this one, the AFP should look into several aircrafts made from other countries besides the US.

Zero,


I am not actually addressing this Kfir issue soley to you and Akima. It is intended more for the AFP officers who might be reading this post.

To answer your query, I am a Filipino through and through. That is why I am far more concerned with the welfare of the Filipino people in general, millions of whom rely solely on the income of their loved ones who toil away in a foreign country half a world away.

That is why I am against anything that will jeopardize their jobs in the Middle East especially if the reason that their jobs will be in danger is our insistence of getting obsolescent, battle-scarred Kfir jets which is not absolutely needed by the PAF.

Having a strong Air Force does not require Kfirs. As I mentioned before, ex-USAF F-16's will be more than enough for the PAF to be a credible deterrent towards external threats and to help win the twin insurgencies. (Not that the national government can afford to buy and maintain F-16's as of now anyway).

The Arabs never said the Philippines can't build up its military. They are only politely and discreetly telling our gov't not to buy Israeli military hardware with the dollars our OFW's earn in their countries.

Do you want to endanger the chances of our Filipino brothers and sisters from getting jobs in the Middle East? The Arabs will do OK without our OFW's. They can always hire people from Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India, Bangladesh, Nepal, etc.

If they kick out the Pinoy OFW's, the Arabs will feel a big loss at first but it will be a knock-out punch to our economy. They can kick out all the Pinoy OFW's and replace them with other workers from 3rd-world countries in a week. Believe me, when it comes to the migrant labor market, it is a buyer's market out there.

You can say "Filipino pride" all you want but the sad truth is that we really, really badly need these jobs that the Arabs provide. It is us who need them and not the other way round.

It does not matter if it will be an outright purchase or a licensing agreement. The PAF, if not Malacanang, has already shelved the plans to get Kfirs.

well we can say no to them as i said if u didn't read it i am not saying ur not and as for that akimima said will i have my doubt on that wars are wars people ready or not ready it cames it cames and buying in 2011 or 2012 alot of things can happen i think u people have forgotten what air force is i am sorry but its the true if u think that just because the theirs peace around this part of the world war would come well i hate to be the one bring bad news to all but it does if u read the constitution it clearly states that the mission of the Armed forces which the Air force is part of is to protect the state from invasion and rebellion if they can't even fight just because they don't have fighters is kind of useless don't u think? u don't need to be an expert to know that i say to hell with ever thing and start building up treats are just near by china is one but there is alot more and a good air force means we mean business this not fiction this reality just remember history people i don't what to be drafted to the Armed force that i know that does not have a chance in hell of winning unlike those poor men back in the day! so here i say lets get this Aircraft to hell with everthing and if not this just get more something or anything that can fly and fight because being just friendly is not just a way of conducting relations but also with a mighty arm just to tell people that u mean business not to a point that ur a treat but a nation willing to defend its self if u just use diplomacy all the time and looking good for other people ur giving the impression of your weakness that u relay on others thats why nobody respects us filipinos its simple psychology people am speaking out of experience that i feel that i should give to my fellow country men

OFFTOPIC: whew .. very long sentence .. ('_')v

well i am sorry just making a point hehe got carried away there

BACK TO TOPIC EVERYBODY.... :thumb:

Okay let us see how does KFIR stack up to other fighter plane.

Here's one.

KFIR has been exported to Columbia, Ecuador and Sri Lanka.. America has leased 25 KFIR c-1 variant to act as an aggressors in the advanced air combat training of US Navy and Marines.

About the latest KFIR C-10/2000
http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=22...D=22948&lang=en

Cheers :armycheers:

A bit unfair to compare the Kfir C10 with Su-30/F-15s since these jets we may as well NEVER have.
Comparing possible interim fighters with these jets will lead us to the conclusion of not being able to buy anything.

Perhaps a few Kfirs would be good to let our pilots train with real jets and not only with S211s. That way they can perform exercises and learn flight tactics until they may hopefully get some MiG-29OVTs (they own F-16's asses :-P)

Dont worry because its only on paper and you can read further the link that I provided in my post about KFIR.

Maybe it is unfair to tell that KFIR is not directly comparable to SU-30 or F-16 but how about the REAL FIGHT OR eMERGENCY when it happen that PAF had really purchase KFIR and needs to intercept some fighter plane in SUKHOI class that violate our airspace.

Can we say to those SUKHOI pilot that violate our airspace, hey its unfair you use SU-30 entering our airspace illegally. :armyroleyes: Im just talking only airspace vilolation.

How about if real attack by SUKHOI class.??

Cheers :armycheers:

Mate, if someone attacks us, I'd be glad for every single fighter the PAF would have to offer.
And Sukhoi-30s would totally destroy our current PAF within short time...
And the only jet that can defeat them - that are affordable for us - are MiG-35s.
And we haven't got any.
Better have some things to fly than none. Being picky is not good for such a poor country.

Yes comrades Marschall as i said theirs alot of things that can happen in this world that can pop out so at less we have some thing that fly well its better than losing without a fight :patrioticpinoy:

If an opportunity comes then by all means grab it. It is better than to have none at all. Maybe just a squadron will do. These will help in the COIN operations. These can offer quick strikes at enemy targets in less time and can be followed up with helos and low altitude bombing by OV-10's. In timawa.net, this aircraft is one that can be classified as an interim fighter...maybe good for 4 to 5 years before the real hardwares are procured.

[Slightly off-topic] SAMs nalang instead of MIGs .. hehe .. peace to all v(",) ...

If you ask me, a better deal would be a high performance jet trainer like the M346 or the TA50 which are as nimble and close to as fast as the Kfir but with better capabilities including advanced avionics.

We still have S 211 flying, is that enough for you??

Being poor are not to be interpreted as a sign you dont have the right to choose the best for you.

If the whole official of AFP particularly those in the higher seat are always dominantly occupied to give all the reason why we cannot acquire such best equipment for the modernizaion of Filipino Soldier and contented to have junk in their arsenal, so long as it works then it will manifest to their status.. Weak and ill equipped AFP

Never put yourself so low or you will achive nothing.

Dreaming the possibilities to have a Highly Potent MRF is much better than settling for an equipment that will be a liability in the end for our Air force.

Cheers :armycheers:

I disagree...we had such a case before when the Govt. planned to buy F-16s.
What happened? They got picky and got NADA.

I'd rather we even have some MRFs and they are still capable fighters and would even be a better platform for our pilots.

Too much pride is never good...

I think for the time being the AFP should get at least a squadron of MRF's not necessarily brand new or 5-10 yrs old. As long as it is still in very good condition and a bit newer than the F5's that the PAF has retired, say first models of F16's or Mirage. The thing here is get something that is fast so that the air strikes can be done at a seconds notice. Element of surprise is the key to get rebels off guard. With helos and OV-10's they will take sometime to get there and once they do most of the rebel elements have either dispersed or have hidden themselves well. As a stop-gap a not so old MRF will do for now until the time when the AFP can buy the Grippens or for dreamers like us the F-22.

MiG-35 #1 choice

IF THIS IS THE CASE, WHY NOT INCLUDE IT AS ONE OF THE OPTIONS FOR OUR AIRFORCE? PWEDE SA ATIN ETO I THINK, AS A STOP-GAP IF THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS...

malabo yan.......mga 50 yrs pa bago palitan yung F5 e

AND WHY, COMRADE LORENZ_MALLARI, DID YOU SAY "MALABO YAN... 50 YEARS BAGO MAPALITAN ANG F-5 E"? DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE ANOTHER 50 YEARS BEFORE WE COULD HAVE AN AIRCRAFT TO REPLACE PAF'S 5-5s??

PLEASE DO EXPLAIN...