US-RP JSOTF-P presence, US spec-ops in Mindanao(updated thread)

U.S. Special Forces Target Hearts and Minds

By Stew Magnuson
National Defense Magazine (cover story)
February 2008

http://nationaldefensemagazine.com/issues/...U.S.Special.htm

ZAMBOANGA CITY, Philippines — The convoy was about to depart a free medical clinic when two pre-teen boys who spent their days picking through garbage ran up and told authorities about the suspicious looking rice sacks with wires sticking out that lay nearby.

In the convoy of Filipino soldiers, doctors and nurses were about 30 Americans who were participating in a civil affairs mission to spread goodwill in an area that had traditionally supported Muslim separatists.

The boys had seen a poster describing roadside bombs and remembered that there were rewards for those who tipped off authorities to their whereabouts.

The convoy was halted, the bombs rendered harmless, and the boys would receive about $4,000 each and a scholarship to finish school.

The poster the boys had seen were part of an information campaign designed by a U.S. special forces military information support team, better known as psychological operations. Civil affairs teams had organized the free clinic.

These two lesser known missions — designed to win the “hearts and minds” of local populations — are being increasingly recognized as an important tool for combating terrorism.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates expounded on the use of so-called “soft power” to achieve U.S. objectives. “One of the most important lessons from our experience in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere has been the decisive role reconstruction, development, and governance plays in any meaningful, long-term success,” Gates said.

“It is just plain embarrassing that al Qaida is better at communicating its message on the Internet than America,” he added.

Some have touted the operation in the southern Philippines as a model of an effective civil affairs and psy-ops campaign. Shortly after Operation Enduring Freedom began in 2001, U.S. special operations forces came to the area to advise and assist the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP).

Officials here said the operation is needed in order to counter terrorist organizations such as the Abu Sayyaf Group and Jemaah Islamiyah, which have targeted westerners — Americans and friendly national governments.

Stabilizing the Philippines is critical to maintaining a safe and secure Southeast Asia, which is one of the United States’ strategic security objectives, officials said.

“This is a different mission than any other I’ve been on,” said Maj. Chris Polites, commander of F-company 97th civil affairs battalion, 95th brigade, based at Ft. Bragg, N.C. There is a “long-standing relationship with the Philippines, and that’s different from any other theater.”

Despite the recognition that bullets and bombs alone aren’t going to win the so-called global war on terrorism, some experts have said the Defense Department has been slow to recognize the importance of these “indirect” effects.

Authors David Tucker and Christopher J. Lamb in a recent book, “United States Special Operations Forces,” contended that civil affairs and psychological operations units are poorly understood, often underutilized, “less valued” and “neglected by Special Operations Command leadership.”

That is not the case in the Philippines where these two esoteric specialties are being given credit for much of the success.

The AFP is taking the cue and quickly beefing up its own capabilities. In October, it established the National Development Support Command, a non-combat, non-regional civil engineering operation. And mass communications graduates from Filipino universities are being recruited into the military to help the armed forces deliver its messages.

In the past, bullets were seen as the only way to battle an insurgency. Military operations simply aggravated the situation, created ill-will, and the cycle of violence continued for decades.

Capt. Abdurasad Sirajan, a former member of the Moro National Liberation Front separatist group, who joined the Philippine army after that organization entered a peace agreement in 1996, said the AFP now recognizes that it needs to engage in the battle of ideas.

Defeating extremist ideology “can’t be done by using force,” he said.

“The stigma of psy-ops is that it manipulates people, which is not true,” said Capt. Jose Taduran, who leads the military information support team, or MIST.

MIST is the kinder, gentler acronym now being used for psychological operations, which is a term senior leaders here now discourage.

“What we’re here to do is advise the AFP on how to do better information operations,” Taduran said as he displayed a table spread with posters, pamphlets, comic books, videos and school items such as book bags, pens and notebooks.

Inside a nondescript building on Camp Navarro in Zamboanga City, he leads a team hunched over computers in a windowless, air-conditioned room.

One member monitors open sources — the local media and websites. The Philippines has a lively and free press, and separatist groups such as the Moro Islamic Liberation Front have their own websites.

A group of specialists develops surveys and questionnaires. AFP personnel and others conduct surveys in villages to gauge attitudes.

The U.S. operation is spread out over several islands and the main island of Mindanao. Messages must be tailored to each community, Taduran said.

The product development team creates the posters and printed matter that are disseminated throughout the islands.

Television and radio are used as well, although these media do not always reach some impoverished communities, Taduran said. The most common forms of communication on the islands are word of mouth, radio, and text messaging.

On the radio side, the MIST team has hired a well-known radio host, Salvation Acerat, better known to local listeners as “Miss Bingo.”

She hosts about six one-hour programs each week broadcast on a government-owned and a private station.

The overall messages are these: that the armed forces of the Philippines and the national government are here to assist the local population; the extremists are hindering economic development; and unless the people help the military rid the area of terrorists, prosperity will not follow.

“Their mission is to destroy humanity. Their mission is to destroy peace and order,” she tells listeners.

There are currently three targeted groups. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front is in long-standing peace negotiations with the government. However, there are militants inside the movement who are opposed to the negotiations and continue to fight.

More notorious is the Abu Sayyaf Group, which has conducted a series of kidnappings, beheadings and bombings. Also in the mix are members of the Indonesia-based Jemaah Islamiyah, who are alleged to have transferred their bomb-making skills and terror tactics to the Philippines.

The MIST team is waging an aggressive operation to capture the bomb makers.

Wanted posters offering awards in the millions of dollars are hung throughout the islands. The extremist groups are also the targets of a series of television commercials.

MIST has hired a Manila-based marketing firm to produce the TV spots.

One script targets the alleged mastermind of the Bali, Indonesia bombing in 2002.

Last March 2003, the JI bombmaker Dulmatin brought the terror to our shores. Nineteen lives were lost when he bombed the Davao airport. Another bomb ripped through the wharf in Davao; 16 more lives perished. An award awaits people with information leading to Dulmatin’s arrest. Don’t let this monster destroy our beautiful Mindanao.

Another ad features a 12-year-old Muslim boy whose father died in a 2005 bombing. Tears roll down his cheeks as he grieves. A similar ad shows the picture of a girl who was killed in a bombing.

“Enough is enough. Help stop terrorism. Answer the call for peace,” a child’s voice says.

Taduran said it’s important that all the information used in the campaigns is factual. Photos on posters are not manipulated. The facts in TV and radio ads and stories of the victimized children are real, he said.

There are varying degrees of messages, from “soft” to “hard,” he explained. The hard messages are those directed toward supporters of terrorists or members of the groups themselves. These come in pamphlets and posters left behind by the Philippine forces.

Word of mouth campaigns are softer. The AFP conducts town hall meetings in villages where officials show videos touting the economic progress and development that follows once peace and security are restored.

Bumper stickers, matchbooks, backpacks and other school supplies are given out as presents with a “Helping Hands” logo.

Taduran said the campaign is dynamic, so there are always adjustments to be made and messages must be updated frequently.

The MIST team will conduct a pilot program using text messaging, which is an increasingly common form of communication.

Inside the U.S. compound at Camp Navarro, a civil affairs soldier used mapping technology to help win hearts and minds in the southern Philippines. Geospatial software was employed to analyze where to best conduct free medical clinics.

Free medical, dental and veterinary clinics — called civil action programs — are used to support the AFP in gaining access to communities. Filipino doctors, dentists and veterinarians come in to provide free care. Of utmost importance, Taduran said, is putting a Filipino face on all these operations.

Other civil action programs include school and clinic renovations, wells and water projects, and road construction.

Polites has a small team of about 32 spread throughout the region. One of the basic services it provides is civil reconnaissance.

By populating maps with people, places and things, or “nodes” in CA lingo, it gives commanders the choice of where best to apply reconstruction projects or clinics he said.

“We don’t have the capacity to fix governance problems, and that’s not really our job … But what we’re good at doing though is recognizing what the problems are,” Polites said. His team works closely with the U.S. Agency for International Development, which has a larger budget and can pay for big ticket development projects.

Measuring success in civil affairs and psychological operations isn’t always easy.

Col. Jim Mishina, operations planner, said one indication of progress is when the extremists attempt to mimic U.S. tactics. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front is now conducting its own free medical clinics. And that’s okay with him.

“Instead of buying weapons and explosive materials, they’re willing to commit dollars to providing medical aid,” Mishina said from Special Operations Command Pacific headquarters in Hawaii.

The battle of ideas goes both ways, he noted. At the beginning of operations in the island of Jolo, the Moro Islamic Liberation Front spread images of the U.S. army dating back to the colonial era when Gen. John Pershing fought a bloody campaign against the local Tausug ethnic group.

Ultimately, it is about matching words with deeds, Mishina said. Improved infrastructure and better security provided by AFP troops are some tangible benefits that please the populace. “Otherwise we’re just putting out messages,” he said.

Despite the success, Taduran echoed the complaint that psy-ops and civil affairs teams don’t receive the respect and recognition as the more glamorous commando, or “direct action” teams.

“Nobody understands us,” he said. “We get no respect because it’s complicated. Nobody wants to sit down and listen to an explanation as to why we shouldn’t just go in and kick doors.”

Polites said that attitudes are changing. “I think people are recognizing more of the necessity [that] when you’re not engaged in high intensity conflicts, that you need resources like civil affairs and MIST.”

To Counter Terrorism, Philippine Army Takes Lessons From U.S. Forces

By Stew Magnuson
National Defense Magazine
February 2008

http://nationaldefensemagazine.com/issues/...y/ToCounter.htm

ZAMBOANGA, Philippines — For the past six years, a little known special operations campaign in the Philippines’ restive southern provinces has applied theoretical counterinsurgency models in a real-world scenario.

Launched shortly after U.S. forces invaded Afghanistan in 2001, joint special operations task force Philippines (JSOTF-P) is a part of Operation Enduring Freedom, the name applied to the Central Asian campaign.

The task force — without engaging in direct combat — has advised and assisted the Armed Forces of the Philippines. They in turn, have pushed Islamic extremist factions into smaller territories, “neutralized” key leaders and prevented them from exporting their violent tactics beyond the nation’s borders, U.S. officials said. Most of the first-generation leaders who trained with Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan have been captured or killed.

The task force’s commanding officer, Col. William Coultrup, said in a briefing room at the operation’s headquarters at Camp Navarro, that the operation’s two overarching goals are denying the terrorist groups sanctuary and creating a credible counterterrorism force within the AFP.

“If we weren’t here, terrorist training camps would have a chance of flourishing in this area, and that’s what we’re trying to prevent,” Coultrup said. “All you need is a few good trainers who can create the next round of suicide bombers,” he added.

But both U.S. and Filipino officials acknowledge that hand-in-hand with military achievements and increased security, economic development must follow for the local populations to reject extremist ideology.

There is still considerable work to be done. The Philippine military’s equipment has deteriorated significantly since the United States was asked in the early 1990s to abandon its bases in this former colony. Whether the central government in Manila can deliver a better standard of living to these long-neglected and impoverished provinces remains to be seen.

“Our ultimate goal is to work ourselves out of a job,” said Coultrup.

The camp is a small, tightly secured compound located within a larger military base in Zamboanga City. Spread throughout the main islands of Mindanao, Basilan and the Sulu archipelago that forms a chain into the Sulawesi Sea, about 500 to 700 U.S. personnel are working with the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP).

U.S. personnel do not engage in combat operations. They have the right to self-defense, but they are not put in situations where that would occur. “They don’t go on patrol,” Coultrup insisted.

There has only been one combat related death, which occurred in the first year — 2002.

Rather than traditional military support, the task force provides small unit training to make Philippine soldiers and marines more professional.

Prior to 2002, the AFP might have used a “sledgehammer” approach to react to terrorists.

The reaction on Basilan Island last summer to an attack which resulted in the deaths and beheadings of 10 marines is one example of how the AFP is changing and shows how so-called “indirect” actions can lead to success, Coultrup said.

In the past, the AFP might have sent in multiple battalions to kick down doors, further aggravating the local population and creating a cycle of violence. This time, the local commander killed local citizens with kindness. He used civil military operations — medical and dental clinics and engineering projects — and face-to-face meetings with local leaders to create a more positive atmosphere. The improved relations resulted in better intelligence and tips that allowed for “surgical strikes.” As a result, many of the perpetrators of the attack have been killed or taken into custody, he said.

Other indirect methods in the special operations toolkit are being used. Civil military operations — sometimes known as civil affairs — provide services and promote effective local governance. Psychological operations — known here as military information support teams — combat ideology, spread “wanted” posters of terrorist leaders, and explain that peace — not conflict — will bring prosperity to the region.

“If the population has more trust in their military, then they’re more likely to go to them for security than to the militants,” Coultrup said.

The southern Philippines is a predominantly Muslim region in a Christian nation.

Abu Sayyaf Group and the Indonesia-based Jemaah Islamiyah, whose leaders have found refuge here — are aligned with al Qaida and use violence to promote their radical Islamist goals. However, two less extreme separatist groups, the Moro National Liberation Front and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front — have grievances that long pre-date the rise of Bin Ladinism.

“The Muslims feel they are third-class citizens of this country,” said radio host Salvation Acerat, who works for the MIST team.

Reports by organizations such as Human Rights Watch, the International Crisis Group and Rand Corp. detail the long history of neglect that have given rise to extremism. Rand, in “Ungoverned Territories: Understanding and Reducing Terrorism Risks,” puts the Sulawesi-Mindanao arc in this category where central governance has little influence.

“Both Central Sulawesi and the Muslim areas of Mindanao have been historically isolated from the centers of political power in Jakarta and Manila and generally neglected by the central authorities,” the report said. Porous borders with piracy, armed militias, terrorists and separatist groups are the results.

Jon Lindborg, mission director for the U.S. Agency for International Development, in an interview at the U.S. embassy in Manila, said the area is rife with the poverty that can breed extremism.

Health, education, and access to infrastructure remain issues, but the central government is making renewed efforts there. The problem of endemic poverty took hold over decades, and won’t be solved overnight, he said.

In some regions there are as many as 100,000 school-age children not receiving any education.

“If you have young males, particularly, who aren’t in school, who don’t have jobs, you know where that goes,” he said.
USAID spends about $80 million per year in the Philippines, of which about 60 percent is focused on the Mindanao region, he said. These numbers have remained flat during the past five years.

There are positive signs that the region is turning around. Zamboanga was the fastest growing region in the Philippines in 2006, which Lindborg attributes to better security. The infant mortality rate has been cut in half during the last five years.

The $50 million per year USAID spends on the region for a target population of about 7 million does have an impact, he said. USAID has been working there since 1996 when the Moro National Liberation Front signed a peace agreement. The agency then helped 20,000 soldiers demobilize and transition to civilian life.

Some broke away and formed the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, which is currently participating in peace negotiations. USAID stands ready to carry out a similar demobilization program for up to 10,000 combatants, if and when a peace agreement is signed, he said.

The Philippine military also has an image problem with extrajudicial killings and junior officers who occasionally threaten the elected government with coups.

These extrajudicial killings are more closely associated with the government’s decades long battle with the communist New People’s Army and its political wing, the National Democratic Front, rather than separatists or terrorists in the south.

The slow judicial process is partly to blame, said U.S. embassy spokesman Lee McClenny. The average case takes seven years to make its way through the moribund courts, which leads people to take justice into their own hands.

Nevertheless, members of the Philippine military have allegedly been involved in some of these politically motivated killings. Human Rights Watch estimated that 800 activists and journalists were killed during the past six years. U.S. embassy officials believe the number is lower — only several hundred.

McClenny said that all members of the military, from privates to officers, undergo human rights training. Some members of the military have been arrested. But Human Rights Watch noted that as of July 2007, none have been convicted.

The New People’s Army is the central government’s number-one security priority rather than terrorism in the south, McClenny said. If the AFP applies training learned from U.S. forces to fight against the communists, that’s fine with the U.S. government. The group is on the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations.

Coultrup added that the task force does not provide the Philippine government support in this long-term struggle.

The Philippine military, meanwhile, has to contend with funding problems.

Since the closure of U.S. bases in 1991, the military’s capability has dropped, said Paul Watzlavick, the embassy’s chief of political and military affairs.

The AFP is fighting the New People’s Army nationwide, and the separatists groups in the south. At the same time, forces often are called to assist in natural disasters. Earthquakes, floods, typhoons, volcanic eruptions — about 40 percent of the secretary of defense’s time is devoted to natural disaster response, Watzlavick said.

The biggest need is for helicopters, he said. One AFP spokesman said the Army’s fleet of UH-1 Hueys stood at about 90 when U.S. forces departed in 1991, but today only about 40 are in working condition. These aircraft cover a nation of 116,000 square miles and 7,107 islands. The Air Force has about five large transport aircraft.

The United States contributes about $60 million in foreign military sales and foreign military financing per year. In nearly every budget bill, these funds are cut dramatically, but Sens. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii; and Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, get them put back in, he added.

The Philippine military “wants to be self-reliant at some point,” Watzlavick said. “They have relied a lot on us through the years.”

In the Mindanao region, no one interviewed would put a timetable as to when U.S. special operations forces would work themselves out of a job.

One AFP spokesman said he thought U.S. forces would be needed in the southern Philippines for 20 years. The joint chiefs of staff and the Congress have extended the mission “indefinitely.”

One of the biggest contributions by the United States is the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets, which include a P-3 Orion maritime surveillance aircraft, small tactical unmanned aerial vehicles such as Scan Eagles and Ravens, and what he called “national intelligence assets,” a common euphemism for spy satellites.

“We share [information] immediately with our AFP counterparts. Everything that the P-3 sees, we let them see,” Coultrup said.

The armed forces need sturdy, low-maintenance items such as boats that can patrol littoral waters and swamps, and reliable helicopters such as the Huey.

Brig. Gen. Ruben Rafael, a regional commander of AFP special operations forces, said he needs third generation night vision technology. He made a request from higher headquarters more than a year ago, but it is still “in the pipeline,” he’s been told.

“We understand it’s expensive to provide one unit for each soldier in a battalion, but normally special operations forces have this kind of equipment,” he said. There are only four helicopters available in Zamboanga, which must cover all the Sulu island chain, he added.

Despite the progress, and as more and more territory on the islands becomes amenable to the AFP and attitudes of the residents towards terrorists and separatists change, there are reminders that the conflicts remain. In December, five marines were killed in a skirmish with a break-away Moro Islamic Liberation Front commander in Sulu. And the AFP has recently banned foreign journalists from visiting nominally secure forward operating bases on outlying islands, citing security concerns.

Coultrup said there has been progress with the Malaysian brokered peace negotiations between the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and the Philippine government. However, intelligence suggests that if an accord is signed, some disgruntled commanders will break away and continue to fight.

Abu Sayyaf Group numbers are down sharply from 2002, but they still have about 500 combatants, he said.

McClenny said the task force is having an enormous impact in assisting a key U.S. ally.

It costs about $32 million per year to support about 500 personnel. “That’s about a half a day in Iraq,” he said.

I give credit to these kinds of operations. But always bear in mind that the enemy CPP-NPA is a thousand times more cruel than us in human rights violations like disrupting peaceable assemblies, abridging the freedoom of speech and the press, multiparty systems, etc. Democratic parties are not allowed in Vietnam and China and the old Soviet Union.Citizens are not allowed to have the privilege of habeas corpus. They just hide the bodies like the killing fields of Cambodia.They are a million times more cruel when it comes to torture and rape. So what am I trying to drive at? No mercy! No blinking of the eye when you kill the enemy. They are moving targets. They are terrorists. Just aim and fire!@@! Sobra na ang pasensiya natin. We're too generous.

This post has been edited by epigone on Feb 6 2008, 01:17 AM

Epigone,

Well it's exactly these kinds of rights like Habeas Corpus which makes us better than those oppressive regimes you mentioned. Too generous? Umm okayy...so you say we should emulate those oppressive regimes. Righhtttt....

The need to be politically correct is a necessity and a benefit which helps maintain justice and fairness in a developed society, not a necessary evil which certain ideologues see as an annoyance which prevents them from doing whatever they want, like shooting someone just because he does not share the same political ideology or religion or whatnot.

Therefore, in a democracy, whether Parliamentary, or Presidential, there are certain unalienable rights that should never be violated. Of course, I do not condone what terrorists do, but I'd rather not see another form of the US "GITMO"/Guantanamo prisoner complex appear in the Philippines. Those suspected, captured terrorists should thus be treated as prisoners of wars/POWs until evidence cane be brought against them in a military tribunal which proves they are indeed terrorists. In fact, at least two of the suspected Taliban POWs who were in GITMO were Canadian citizens, of whom one was repatriated to Canada.

With that said, US, the UK, Canada, Australia, as well as the whole international community represented by the UN for that matter, should think of overhauling the Geneva Convention to reflect the realities of today; therefore the definition of a POW should be extended to "suspected" terrorists who are innocent until proven guilty. We cannot allow to have another Maher Arar case to occur.

If we just have summary executions, as well as renditions to secret CIA prisons where torture and waterboarding occurs, that makes us no better than the enemies we are trying to defeat.

This post has been edited by MSantor on Feb 6 2008, 04:40 AM

I am not saying that we too be 'oppresive', MSantor. At least the people or those in the media realize that the AFP should also be pleasing to their judgment rather than one-sided partiality to CPP-NPA. Let them ask Sison to 'name any communist country that grants its citizens the privilege of the writ of the habeas corpus' and bet your life. I am sure he cannot name any or promise that he too will grant it.

America is a country where the rule of law is supreme. Read the book FAIR GAME by a CIA named Mrs. Plame. Her detractors are now in jail and one of them is Bush's adviser. If I were to choose to between living in Iran where there is no rule of law and a bribe of 10 trillion dollars, I'd rather live in USA in minimum wage because I know that there is no else other country where I can be given justice but that in USA.

Our laws in the PHilippines are patterned at US supreme court decisions and Congressional statutes.

Sison is a monster. Sison is a terrorist. Sison is a moving target. Sison should be shot at first sight the way his terrorists threatened me here in Toronto with 'pinagiisipan muna namin bago ka namin patayin, epigone.

Epigone,

While I have the utmost respect for the US Constitution, the US Judicial Branch and its Bill of Rights, I must disagree with you on this point. Canada and the UK have similar justice systems and if you do live in Toronto you would be aware of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms enacted when LIBERAL Prime Minister Trudeau was in office in the 1980s.

The US Justice system is very good, but it is not the best; one of its downfalls is the large number of "junk lawsuits" in US courts nowadays where people can simply sue someone for what many consider the most petty of reasons.

Epigone,

While I have the utmost respect for the US Constitution, the US Judicial Branch and its Bill of Rights, I must disagree with you on this point. Canada and the UK have similar justice systems and if you do live in Toronto you would be aware of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms enacted when LIBERAL Prime Minister Trudeau was in office in the 1980s.

The US Justice system is very good, but it is not the best; one of its downfalls is the large number of "junk lawsuits" in US courts nowadays where people can simply sue someone for what many consider the most petty of reasons.

Pierre Trudeau and Maggie Trudeau were witting agents of influence for Cuba. And Cuba is a communist country. Read their history. Canadian and American liberalism symbolizes everything that are displeasing to God or ungodly: gay marriages, abortion, banning prayers in school even though when 'three muslims, christians, hindus, sikhs, buddhists are gathered to pray. They were witting or unwitting tools to counteract McCarthyism which was not red scare. Everything that McCarthy predicted became true. The atomic spies, Michael Straight, Philby, and all of them spies for the Soviet Union.. etc. etc.

Epigone,

While I have the utmost respect for the US Constitution, the US Judicial Branch and its Bill of Rights, I must disagree with you on this point. Canada and the UK have similar justice systems and if you do live in Toronto you would be aware of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms enacted when LIBERAL Prime Minister Trudeau was in office in the 1980s.

The US Justice system is very good, but it is not the best; one of its downfalls is the large number of "junk lawsuits" in US courts nowadays where people can simply sue someone for what many consider the most petty of reasons.

Pierre Trudeau and Maggie Trudeau were witting agents of influence for Cuba. And Cuba is a communist country. Read their history. Canadian and American liberalism symbolizes everything that are displeasing to God or ungodly: gay marriages, abortion, banning prayers in school even though when 'three muslims, christians, hindus, sikhs, buddhists are gathered to pray. They were witting or unwitting tools to counteract McCarthyism which was not red scare. Everything that McCarthy predicted became true. The atomic spies, Michael Straight, Philby, and all of them spies for the Soviet Union.. etc. etc.

Epigone,

People of other religions have the right to practice whatever they want as long they are not doing anything harmful to others or myself. If you truly believe in FREEDOM, you will not impose your beliefs on others through passing laws that suit your "sensitivities"; and don't use any religious rhetoric to justify your right-wing ideology because a true Catholic (even a Protestant/Iglesia ni Kristo like yourself) would be accepting and would seek to change someone through persuasion and conversion to religion, not through forcing them to do so.

Thus, people in Canada have the right to gay marriage because it's their business and it's none of my business as long as they are not imposing it on me; the issue of abortion is another prickly issue, but even if I am Catholic I do believe that women have been raped have to right to choice for abortion. Why do you have a problem with Sikhs and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists here in Canada? They have the right to practice their own religion; as for the lessening emphasis on Christian values in schools, that is a good thing, because there should be a seperation of Church and State, which is also a core, implicit value of developed, secular, First World nations like Canada and the United States.

Yes, I am really LIBERAL, Epigone, and to impose your values on others would make you no better than those Mullahs or Ayatollahs in Islamic extremist groups who want to stamp out anyone who respectfully disagrees or who practices their own way of life in a civilized manner.

Thus, the "Multiculturalism" concept of Canada is one of the core values that has made our nation the prosperous, immigrant nation it is today. If you don't like it, go across the US border to one of those Bible-beating majority Evangelical Protestant states to find narrow-minded people in Red/Republican-leaning states who think like you. And hopefully, after this November election, the United States will elect a Democratic President and put those xenophobic hicks in their place.

And don't get me started on the difference between Social and Financial Conservatives, Epigone; I am well aware of the difference, and you seem to be both, but that is the subject of another debate and all these lengthy political discussions are already too far on a tangent from the main topic of this thread.

This post has been edited by MSantor on Feb 8 2008, 03:12 AM

Epigone,

While I have the utmost respect for the US Constitution, the US Judicial Branch and its Bill of Rights, I must disagree with you on this point. Canada and the UK have similar justice systems and if you do live in Toronto you would be aware of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms enacted when LIBERAL Prime Minister Trudeau was in office in the 1980s.

The US Justice system is very good, but it is not the best; one of its downfalls is the large number of "junk lawsuits" in US courts nowadays where people can simply sue someone for what many consider the most petty of reasons.

Pierre Trudeau and Maggie Trudeau were witting agents of influence for Cuba. And Cuba is a communist country. Read their history. Canadian and American liberalism symbolizes everything that are displeasing to God or ungodly: gay marriages, abortion, banning prayers in school even though when 'three muslims, christians, hindus, sikhs, buddhists are gathered to pray. They were witting or unwitting tools to counteract McCarthyism which was not red scare. Everything that McCarthy predicted became true. The atomic spies, Michael Straight, Philby, and all of them spies for the Soviet Union.. etc. etc.

Epigone,

People of other religions have the right to practice whatever they want as long they are not doing anything harmful to others or myself. If you truly believe in FREEDOM, you will not impose your beliefs on others through passing laws that suit your "sensitivities"; and don't use any religious rhetoric to justify your right-wing ideology because a true Catholic (even a Protestant/Iglesia ni Kristo like yourself) would be accepting and would seek to change someone through persuasion and conversion to religion, not through forcing them to do so.

Thus, people in Canada have the right to gay marriage because it's their business and it's none of my business as long as they are not imposing it on me; the issue of abortion is another prickly issue, but even if I am Catholic I do believe that women have been raped have to right to choice for abortion. Why do you have a problem with Sikhs and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists here in Canada? They have the right to practice their own religion; as for the lessening emphasis on Christian values in schools, that is a good thing, because there should be a seperation of Church and State, which is also a core, implicit value of developed, secular, First World nations like Canada and the United States.

Yes, I am really LIBERAL, Epigone, and to impose your values on others would make you no better than those Mullahs or Ayatollahs in Islamic extremist groups who want to stamp out anyone who respectfully disagrees or who practices their own way of life in a civilized manner.

Thus, the "Multiculturalism" concept of Canada is one of the core values that has made our nation the prosperous, immigrant nation it is today. If you don't like it, go across the US border to one of those Bible-beating majority Evangelical Protestant states to find narrow-minded people in Red/Republican-leaning states who think like you. And hopefully, after this November election, the United States will elect a Democratic President and put those xenophobic hicks in their place.

And don't get me started on the difference between Social and Financial Conservatives, Epigone; I am well aware of the difference, and you seem to be both, but that is the subject of another debate and all these lengthy political discussions are already too far on a tangent from the main topic of this thread.

Economic values like free trade and less taxes have produced tangible results here in Canada. 12 billion dollars wwere our surplus last year. Imagine if free trade were abolished in America. Nobody can refute the theories of Supereconomic advisers like Greenspan on free trade and less taxes. That's why America became a superpower because of Greenspan's right wing economic agenda. Nobody can deny that US became a superpower because of her sound economic policies.

Trudeau bankrupt the country with 800 dollar billion debt. If you are wise enough to construe that kind of policy, it would amount to economic sabotage. And the Liberals and the NDP still have kept on their spending sprees unmindful of the bankruptcy and the foreign debt.

Harper will hang on till the end because the people have realized that Harper has the sound economic policies.

Back to Clinton. Clinton is a subtle Cuban agent of influence. He influenced the Elian Gonzales case. Who knows what has he might had done. Probably inserted a lot of Cuban agents like Ana Montes into CIA and DIA.

I am irreligious too if you wanna know. I don't go to church. But being conservative might propel my soul to heigher Deity. That's my way of repenting. Not to legalize marijuana for it will corrupt society. Not to legalize gay marriages for it will corrupt society. It's a personal choice for me. I don't want to go to hell! The Bible is clear. Abortion is murder. Man and woman should marry. "Pray when two or three are gathered." again it's personal. It's my way of seeking repentance. If HIllary does not want to repent it's up to her but my Bible and the Quran is clear. Again it's personal.

Survivor Claims Seeing US Soldiers With Local Troops Involved in ‘Massacre’

ZAMBOANGA CITY, Philippines, 8 February 2008 — American soldiers were with Filipino troops involved in the killing of seven Muslim civilians and a government soldier in the southern Philippines last Monday, a survivor in the “massacre” said yesterday.

Rawina Wahid, widow of an off-duty Philippine Army soldier who was among those killed, said she saw four US soldiers on a boat used by the raiders.

“I saw four Americans on the naval boat. When I climbed aboard, the soldiers blindfolded me. I asked them, ‘why did you blindfold me?’ They said, ‘so that you won’t see anything when we climb up,” she told ABS-CBN television in an interview.

Wahid’s widow said she boarded the navy boat that took her husband’s remains to a military base in Jolo town.

Last Monday’s tragedy, which Sulu officials, villagers and human rights groups described as a massacre, was another blackeye on US troops, who are in the southern Philippines to help local troops fight Al-Qaeda-linked militants.

The local troops involved in the massacre were from the army’s elite Light Reaction Company (LRC) and the Navy’s Special Warfare Group (SWAG).

The commandos earlier reported killing militants in a clash in Maimbung town but the fatalities turned out to be two children, two teenagers, a pregnant woman, an off-duty army soldier, and another adult.

Those killed were identified as Marisa Payian, 4; Wedme Lahim, 9; Alnalyn Lahim, 15; Sulayman Hakob, 17; Kirah Lahim, 45; Eldisim Lahim, 43; Narcia Abon, 24; all civilians and Pfc. Ibnul Wahid, of the army’s 6th Infantry Division.

ABS-CBN reported that other villagers also noticed the presence of US soldiers on the boat. It quoted reports by the human rights groups Consortium of Bangsamoro Civil Society and the Suara Bangsamoro that the presence of the US forces in the area raised concerns about its involvement in local military operations, which violates the Philippine Constitution.

“There were many people near the naval boat and they saw the soldiers boarding it. The American forces were also aboard,” ABS-CBN quoted Temugen Tulawie, of the CBCS, as say-ing.

“They said that with the presence of US soldier in Sulu, the Armed Forces of the Philippines will be professionalized and there will lessen human rights violations. It seems the other way around, they were tolerating it,” Tulawie said.

Maj. Gen. Ruben Rafael, commander of an anti-terror task force in Sulu province, said the US soldiers were not involved in the operation. “No US soldiers were involved in the operation and they were not even near the town when the fighting broke out,” Rafael told Arab News.

Rafael said the military is still investigating the killings of the civilians, although he insisted the operation targeted the Abu Sayyaf group, which is holding a kidnapped trader Rosalie Lao.

Sulu Gov. Sakur Tan has condemned the killings of the innocent civilians and vowed to file criminal charges against the soldiers. He said many of those killed were shot in the head.

“Innocent civilians were killed. The children were shot in the head. We condemn the killings and those soldiers involved in the murder of innocent people must be charged in court and pay for their crimes,” Tan said.

Defense Secretary Gilberto Teodoro is expected to fly to Sulu later this week to meet with Tan and other provincial officials about the killings. Philippine flags around Sulu were flown at half-mast since Tuesday as villagers mourned the deaths of the civilians.

Villagers said some of those killed were shot at sea while trying to escape the fighting on boat. The soldiers who raided the village were members of the army’s Light Reaction Company, trained by US forces, and Navy’s Special Warfare Group.

On Thursday, the Salinlahi Alliance for Children’s Concerns, an umbrella organization of child rights and welfare groups, strongly condemned the killings and urged for an independent probe of the incident.

“The usual casualties in this campaign are innocent civilians, particularly women and children. The incident again proved that the anti-terrorism campaign as well as the counter-insurgency program of the Armed Forces of the Philippines directed against the handful Abu Sayyaf and other armed groups is absorbed more by the civilian population rather than their real targets,” Alphonse Rivera, the group’s spokesman, said.

“Every incident involving military personnel as perpetrators is dismissed by the military top-brass as casualties of “legitimate encounters” to justify their acts and escape culpability. The next thing we will hear is that the military will insist that these children are also Abu Sayyaf members as if that will justify the killing,” Rivera said.__

Reps. Yusop Jikiri, of Sulu province and Mujiv Hataman, of Basilan have separately called for a congressional investigation into the killings in Maimbung town.

Jikiri, a former rebel leader of the Moro National Liberation Front, said the off-duty soldier killed along with seven civilians was shot in front of his wife.

“Wahid was reportedly hogtied first before he was shot in front of her. The wife, in fact, showed the military uniform of her husband, but the soldiers merely ignored the plea of Mrs. Wahid. Later, Mrs. Wahid was taken by the soldiers to the rubber boat allegedly driven by an American soldier,” Jikiri said in a privilege speech in Congress on Wednesday.

Hataman also filed a resolution on Thursday seeking for an urgent investigation of the killings, which he described as “despicable, loathsome and ruthless.” “There is no valid reason, es-pecially for the soldiers who are supposed to be the protector of the people, to kill innocent civilians, particularly children,” he said.

The Commission on Human Rights has sent a team in Sulu province and is currently investigating the killings.

source

I can't help but the sound like a paranoid Right-Winger but the story sounds like the stuff Lefties would dish out to stir antipathy towards our long-suffering military, the perceivably and irrepentantly inept and corrupt government it serves and the domineering, self-serving US government.

It gives the impression that our SOF troops are being trained to do stupid and covert things like indiscriminantly kill poor innocent civillians just to show them who's boss and not the opposite which is to use soft power to win them over.

The Americans are seen to teach our troops to do the same stupid things they did when they last fought in Mindanao, in Vietnam, in Guatanamo and in Abu Ghraib. The same stupid things they taught us when we were fighting Huks and when the same brutality they taught the likes of Manuel Noriega and Henry D' Aubisson ( who allegedly organized Salvadoran Military Death Squads like the ones who killed Archbishop Romero and Jesuit missionaries in El Salvador) during the Cold War.

This post has been edited by Tora^2 on Feb 8 2008, 03:25 PM

Is this what the Navy SWAG and LRC troops learned from the Americans?

killing children and women and even fellow soldiers is not the way to end the troubles in Mindanao.

american forces performance in Iraq and afghanistan is dismal largely due to their inappropriate tactics that alienate them from the civilians, so why follow the same here?

I do not contest that indictment be in the offing. But we're better off than MILF or NPA committing massacres like suicide bombings, the Tianamen Square massacre or Oplan Kampanyang Ahos. The victims will be rest assured that there will be open redress of grievances. Ask Sison and bet on him to name a communist country which was held accountable for massacres like Tianamen of China on which he models his form of government. Bet your lives, he cannot name one.

We know of one person here who used to comment and comment on things like terrorism but evades or does not post on topics on CPP-NPA headed by Sison, a chinese spy. N/V Karagatan arms landing.This is PHILIPPINES !!! DEFENSE FORUM not American! Hindi talaga tumitigil ang lintik (275 thousand personal injury lawsuit or 10 thousand bet) Or deportation. On what grounds? It;s for you to see! Surprise!

This post has been edited by epigone on Feb 12 2008, 03:34 AM

Ewan...

Valiant,

Oh really? If the survivor's account and the allegations are true, it's a shame US troops aren't using the same "winning hearts and minds" civic-military cooperation techniques they are using that helped cause the recent decrease in violence in Iraq. It is apparent that the Iraqi people there are tired of violence; so while the violence there hasn't ended and there is still work to be done, at least there has been more progress, contrary to what you said. Here's one article from as early as October that confirms it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idU...&rpc=22&sp=true

Also, US Pres. Bush's announcement during his State of the Nation Address at the end of last month, that one US Army Brigade and one US Marine Regimental Combat Team (if I can recall correctly the size of the units he mentioned) would not be replaced when they are withdrawn soon, means that the violence has gone down to a level manageable enough that the gradual withdrawal of US troops has begun, albeit slowly.

This post has been edited by MSantor on Feb 12 2008, 09:22 AM

If I can add, I believe they have more Supporters than combatants as specified in the previous post below.